Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
That is a bit different. Think about it for a second. Your analogy is flawed.
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The witchhunt continues...
- Thread starter Father Heathen
- Start date
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
My god, this thread is depressing, although I would like to thank a few posters like @ImmortalFlame @ADigitalArtist et al for waking me up to the fact that there isn't really much point in arguing about all this. @icehorse and I are simply behind the times. Seriously, once one is OK with Cakegender and Clowngender the discussion really is over. The inmates are running the assylm, but more importantly, they have been running it for a long time already. What Icehorsey and I are discovering is that we've arrived too late. This way of thinking is so deeply entrenched now that it is not going to go away.
Again, thanks to those of you who took the time to explain yourself in such staggeringly clear terms. I found your comments quite breathtaking at times.
DING: Now I get it. People who get themselves cancelled get cancelled because so many people have already adopted this way of thinking. The numbers for those supporting this drivel will only go up due to the normalization of the entire subject matter through the schools. SOGI as the program is called in my province, British Columbia. If I remember correctly this has been taught in BC schools for over 6 years. So, you guys were that far ahead of Icehorse's and my thinking back then.
What I am getting at is that I remain very far from convinced about any of this though I do understand the theory much better. More importantly, I understand that what I think does not really matter. It's a bit late for all that now. You see, once you can get folks to believe and support this kind of thinking you really can get them to believe anything. It's fricken brilliant.
What I have been slow to understand is that you folks ALREADY own the narrative and have done so for much longer than I've been aware of the freaking topic. I can hardly wait to see how you folks are going to sell Gender Ideology to the Muslim world. *suppresses a giggle*
Again, thanks to those of you who took the time to explain yourself in such staggeringly clear terms. I found your comments quite breathtaking at times.
DING: Now I get it. People who get themselves cancelled get cancelled because so many people have already adopted this way of thinking. The numbers for those supporting this drivel will only go up due to the normalization of the entire subject matter through the schools. SOGI as the program is called in my province, British Columbia. If I remember correctly this has been taught in BC schools for over 6 years. So, you guys were that far ahead of Icehorse's and my thinking back then.
What I am getting at is that I remain very far from convinced about any of this though I do understand the theory much better. More importantly, I understand that what I think does not really matter. It's a bit late for all that now. You see, once you can get folks to believe and support this kind of thinking you really can get them to believe anything. It's fricken brilliant.
What I have been slow to understand is that you folks ALREADY own the narrative and have done so for much longer than I've been aware of the freaking topic. I can hardly wait to see how you folks are going to sell Gender Ideology to the Muslim world. *suppresses a giggle*
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Why use a strawman argument? That tells us that you did not get it.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
*falls off chair laughing*
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It is the debate when people speak of trans related things as if anything about it is new. Premodern societies largely just didn't care about it and accepted it and sometimes even celebrating it, with an assortment of evidence that show even the gods have been transgender and known to cross dress on occasion.
It is the debate when someone says the medical side is new, which also just not a true claim at all as in just five years the first documented medical transition happened a century ago. For many and lots of people it is new information, no doubt, but there's nothing new going on about it.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Yes. New to me, which this still is considering how long that I have been around. Does not mean new to the medical field. The question is why did a "problem" that affects so few people cause so much hysteria from the right? It may be due to a lingering hatred of homosexuals. I know it is not the same thing at all, but to a MAGA it is.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
They said about Judas Priest and Magic the Gathering when I was a kid. They say it about gay marriage, abortion and no more school led prayer as well.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Yeah. While so many seem to love arguing, even those claiming to go to church, etc., assailing the Bible, the arguments by some are so encouched in terms hard to understand and comprehend...it's almost like some theories -- beyond human comprehension even though there are some who attempt to figure it out.
InChrist
Free4ever
I think the inmates are running the asylum and our culture and the world is going further and further down the rabbit hole. It doesn’t surprise me, as unnerving as it is though, because I believe the Bible which warns of delusion in the last days.
“There is zero difference between people being called "transgender" & the rest of us, in the sense that we’re all biological & exist as part of a sexually dimorphic species. We're all tethered to reality by our sex. The mysterious, otherworldliness created around people who medically disown their sex is a corporate construction, a fiction. It is purposeful, powerful, and dangerous.
The creation of this corporate fiction is one step toward attempting to overlay a virtual reality onto the natural world and to construct a religion out of technology. Elites at the highest levels of our technocracy have been speaking about technologies so advanced that they provide us with god-likequalities for at least fifty years, probably longer.
The current iteration of this ideology, established by the technocracy we live in, is meant to ensconce us in a virtual or cyber world to which the natural world is subjugated. With its massive propaganda apparatus, it has only taken a decade to convince the populace that there is a unique type of human, untethered to the biosphere like the rest of us, mere “biological people.”
The political left (media and politicians) is helping to manifest this virtual reality driving a narrative of unique, ethereal humans, unattached to the ecosystem & needing special rights within law & society.
The political right (media and politicians) is linguistically supporting this edifice whenever they argue that “transgender women” don’t belong in “biological women’s” sports, prisons, colleges, etc. They solidify the illusion of another type of human that is not biological at every turn. Until the media focuses on tearing down the faulty premise of people outside of the parameters of our sexed reality, this exercise of building a virtual reality for us to live in will only continue to be solidified. The premise of alternate humans must be attacked along with the political lobby fostering the illusion.”
“Gender Identity”: A Corporate Fiction
There is zero difference between people being called "transgender" & the rest of us, in the sense that we’re all biological & exist as part of a sexually dimorphic species. We're all tethered to reality by our sex.
jbilek.substack.com
“No, no, no. I will never accept such semantic nonsense as normal, and neither should you. Not in a million years.
There is no such thing as “her penis.” (We are not talking about a biological anomaly which leaves someone with ambiguous or dual genitalia. We are talking about males vs. females, and Merager is a male.)
And if a woman, in the midst of other naked or partially naked women, “exposed herself,” there would not be an outcry from the other women, especially mothers with their daughters. Who would even notice?”
———
“This is cultural madness, plain and simple, and I will not tone down my rhetoric in an effort to appear moderate and balanced.
I truly care for those who struggle with gender identity issues, especially young people. I also know that the vast amount of confusion we’re witnessing today is the result of sociological contagion.
Let us call it out for what it is. And let us not stop speaking up and speaking out until the tide turns and sanity prevails. Do we really have a choice?”
No, No, No. I Will Never Accept This As Normal | N.A.P.
No. I will never accept such semantic nonsense. Merager, 53, who identifies as female and allegedly exposed her penis in Los Angeles, is not normal. Never.
new.americanprophet.org
This isn't new. But maybe putting it behind an old film grain lens will help?
Anyway, if we wanted inmates running things, we'd have asked you.
There's no Muslims here to be irate but you do have a bunch of people who think life is 6k years old and humans rode dinosaurs to back you up.
I think the inmates are running the asylum and our culture and the world is going further and further down the rabbit hole. It doesn’t surprise me, as unnerving as it is though, because I believe the Bible which warns of delusion in the last days.
“There is zero difference between people being called "transgender" & the rest of us, in the sense that we’re all biological & exist as part of a sexually dimorphic species. We're all tethered to reality by our sex. The mysterious, otherworldliness created around people who medically disown their sex is a corporate construction, a fiction. It is purposeful, powerful, and dangerous.
The creation of this corporate fiction is one step toward attempting to overlay a virtual reality onto the natural world and to construct a religion out of technology. Elites at the highest levels of our technocracy have been speaking about technologies so advanced that they provide us with god-likequalities for at least fifty years, probably longer.
The current iteration of this ideology, established by the technocracy we live in, is meant to ensconce us in a virtual or cyber world to which the natural world is subjugated. With its massive propaganda apparatus, it has only taken a decade to convince the populace that there is a unique type of human, untethered to the biosphere like the rest of us, mere “biological people.”
The political left (media and politicians) is helping to manifest this virtual reality driving a narrative of unique, ethereal humans, unattached to the ecosystem & needing special rights within law & society.
The political right (media and politicians) is linguistically supporting this edifice whenever they argue that “transgender women” don’t belong in “biological women’s” sports, prisons, colleges, etc. They solidify the illusion of another type of human that is not biological at every turn. Until the media focuses on tearing down the faulty premise of people outside of the parameters of our sexed reality, this exercise of building a virtual reality for us to live in will only continue to be solidified. The premise of alternate humans must be attacked along with the political lobby fostering the illusion.”
“Gender Identity”: A Corporate Fiction
There is zero difference between people being called "transgender" & the rest of us, in the sense that we’re all biological & exist as part of a sexually dimorphic species. We're all tethered to reality by our sex.
“No, no, no. I will never accept such semantic nonsense as normal, and neither should you. Not in a million years.
There is no such thing as “her penis.” (We are not talking about a biological anomaly which leaves someone with ambiguous or dual genitalia. We are talking about males vs. females, and Merager is a male.)
And if a woman, in the midst of other naked or partially naked women, “exposed herself,” there would not be an outcry from the other women, especially mothers with their daughters. Who would even notice?”
———
“This is cultural madness, plain and simple, and I will not tone down my rhetoric in an effort to appear moderate and balanced.
I truly care for those who struggle with gender identity issues, especially young people. I also know that the vast amount of confusion we’re witnessing today is the result of sociological contagion.
Let us call it out for what it is. And let us not stop speaking up and speaking out until the tide turns and sanity prevails. Do we really have a choice?”
No, No, No. I Will Never Accept This As Normal | N.A.P.
No. I will never accept such semantic nonsense. Merager, 53, who identifies as female and allegedly exposed her penis in Los Angeles, is not normal. Never.
Those excerpts from the above links seem to me alarmist rather than evidence-based. The way they frame the issue merely constructs a conspiracy theory without any regard for available medical evidence, and I sometimes wish I could ask authors of such things who claim to be Christian whether they believe the deep hatred and suffering to which they contribute would be in line with Jesus' teachings. For example, this is from the "About Us" section of the second link above:
It doesn't cite any peer-reviewed evidence, yet it presents opinions on a strictly medical issue as facts. It claims to follow Jesus, yet it repeats a markedly dehumanizing, unevidenced narrative that has contributed to suffering and loss of life in multiple parts of the world.
Transgender people have existed for as long as humans have, but medical science now provides them with the ability to change their bodies so that their bodies are closer to their gender. This is not going to be a perfect replication of being born a specific sex, but it has still provided many people with significant and sometimes life-saving mental health benefits:
Gender-affirming Care Saves Lives
Growing legislative attempts to limit, ban, or criminalize access to this critical model of medical care endangers the health and well-being of transgender and nonbinary youth.
Mental health benefits associated with gender-affirming surgery
Gender-affirming surgeries are associated with numerous positive health benefits, including lower rates of psychological distress and suicidal ideation, as well as lower rates of smoking, according…
The benefits of gender-affirming care
Together, we can make health care inclusive for trans youth
The medical development whereby sex reassignment surgeries and hormone therapies have become more advanced is a relatively recent change on a historical scale, so it is going to have concomitant social and legal issues to work out. The question of trans people's participation in sports with cis people is an example of this, as is the question of the extent of access to women's spaces that trans people should legally have (e.g., whether a trans woman who hasn't undergone surgery should be imprisoned with biological women).
These are not easy issues to resolve, nor do I think a perfect solution will happen anytime soon. However, I don't see the solution as the erasure or dismissal of trans people or their identity either. The solution is not to call them "delusional," deny or dismiss the significant medical evidence about their condition, or say they should just be forced to live as the gender matching their biological sex even though many suffer or even die because of untreated gender dysphoria.
For most people, these are just issues to discuss online, without any personal stakes involved, and there's little or no cost to having an unevidenced or medically incorrect position. For others, they have major personal stakes in these issues, to the point where even their health or their lives may depend on the direction issues like gender-affirming care take. They may be trans people who need the medical care for gender dysphoria. They may be cis women who may not be anti-trans and understandably have questions about the ramifications and details of who is going to have access to women's spaces, and under what conditions.
All of that is going to take time, effort, and discussion to work out to a reasonably settled level, but we're not there yet—and I certainly don't think we get any closer to that level when some media outlet or politician oversimplifies the issue and thinks that denying or ignoring medical science and the reality of gender dysphoria, such as by dismissively labeling established science "gender ideology" while promoting anti-trans or anti-scientific ideology themselves, is going to make trans people or any of these issues go away.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
See it is all an evil plan. They went so far as to create a time machine so that they could contaminate Loveboat!This isn't new. But maybe putting it behind an old film grain lens will help?
Anyway, if we wanted inmates running things, we'd have asked you.
There's no Muslims here to be irate but you do have a bunch of people who think life is 6k years old and humans rode dinosaurs to back you up.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
The problem is that a defintion only is about the usage of a word and not whether it is a fact as such.
If I make a defintion of the word God meaning a supernatural being, which created the universe, then that is not the same as it is fact, that there is a supernatural being, which created the universe.
For words it is a fact, that they all require brains to work, have a meaning and a referent, and that those 3 are not the same.
So when dealing with words, you also that to include the referent. What the word is about as what it refers to and not just its meaning.
There is even more when we include objective, social and individual for words dependent on brains and not dependent for their referent.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
That's not what I addressed you saying earlier. Again, here is what you said:
"that child is still not their actual child."
Those words. "ACTUAL child".
Those are the words I took issue with, because you are implying that a child who is adopted is somehow "not the ACTUAL child" of their adoptive parents. But they are. They're just not the BIOLOGICAL child. Do you understand?
That's fine, but do you understand the mentality that I'm pointing out here?
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Thanks for showing your true colors.
The point I made is this: the word man is not static in the sense of only referring to biological males, but can refer to mankind, specific professions or stations (the members of which are not necessarily male) such as postman, lineman, or policeman, or to an individual member (not necessarily male) of a group or team. Man does not always specifically mean biological male, nor does it always refer to a biological male. It isn't all about sex, and there is so much more to life than sex. or biology, for that matter.
Other relational words are not always confined to biology, either. Father, mother, daughter, son, brother, sister does not always refer to biological father, mother, son, daughter, brother, or sister. Aunt and uncle can refer to a wide range of people, not necessarily family (biological or adopted) members. Cousins can be stretched even further, sometimes even referring to relationships between two different species. Man has an even farther range than that.
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wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Superficial judgments like what is on the surface; dresses like a woman, is also the basis for racism; has black skin on the surface. What is down deep like DNA or character, is not being considered by the Left. The approach of the Left is similar to racism; look at the shallow surface only, and not anything deeper.
It would be like saying a White Supremisist can get all the benefits given by the NAACP, if they color their skin black without having to change what is deeper in their psyche. This is too shallow for me and will not always end well, since the surface does not fully define any person, but can be used to game the system.
Using the women's rest room appears to be more needed to complete an ensemble; surface, than to nest with the hens; instinct. Shallow may be good enough for the Left but other people are deeper and need to be respected.
Transgender is very shallow, mostly based on surface changes, but not deep down change, or else women and girls would not feel uneasy. Sometime you can sense something deeper not seen on the surface.
You said it was a lie to call a transwoman a woman. Transwomen call themselves women, and she? In your definition, that is a lie.
And now are stubbornly asking the same question I have already answered, as if when I answer and don't say what you want me to say, I didn't answer.
You are fixated that "what" you are is physical and only physical. This is a blindingly narrow way of thinking about the complexities of human life -- when in fact they only thing that makes us truly different from other animals is our brain, how we use our minds. In fact, in every other way, we're inferior to most animals. We're weaker -- a chimpanzee could rip your arm off before you could do it any harm at all -- our senses are duller than most animals. But our brains make us who we truly are. Humans have done the most amazing things with those brains. We've invented tools that allow us to complete re-shape our world (or destroy it). We've left this planet and walked on the surface of the moon. We have a telescope a million miles away observing the universe as its never been observed before.
But to you, if you are born with a penis -- all of you, including both your penis and the brain that knows itself as youl -- must be a man. The brain has nothing to do with it, and if the brain happens to feel like a female, then it is lying to itself.
And I know, nothing I say is ever going to change your mind. I rather suspect that may be in part because you perceive "male" -- you know, owning a penis and testicles -- as being so much superior, and nobody without them better think themselves as good as you.
A most impoverished viewpoint, in my opinion. So I'm done discussing it with you.
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Phenotypes are a result of genetics, but other factors such as hormonal and environmental factors.
Besides that, my post and link were a response to the idea that "XX and Xy are how we should define gender and you can't change that" idea.
Androgen Sensitivity Syndrome isn't super common, but enough so that it is a clear enough example that genetics is only one factor in our sex, and specifically how our bodies appear according to our practical use of gender. Biology is by no means a simple science.
Like, seriously, look at the pictures on the link. Are they male or female? Man or woman?