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The witchhunt continues...

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
If you want to use actual as both adopted and birth children that is ok. It still does not change the fact that adopted and birth children to parents are not the same.
I didn't say they are the same. I am specifically talking about your use of the word "ACTUAL".

For example, if I were to say "children with learning disabilities are not the ACTUAL children of their parents", and you were to point out that what I said makes it sound like I was calling disabled children illegitimate or lesser, do you think a reasonable response from me would be to say "you can say they're actual if you like, but that still does not change the fact that non-disabled and disabled children are not the same".

Do you see the non-sequitur there?

Nope. I don't understand how this pertains to the discussion because I can call an adopted child the parents actual child but if the parents asked me if the child was their birth child then I would say no. Same as a transgender man, I will call them a man if they want but if they ask me if I believe they are a man I would say no.
I don't have a huge problem with that. My issue was with calling adopted children "not the ACTUAL children" of their adoptive parents, which sounds pretty obviously wrong on a few levels.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Phenotypes are a result of genetics, but other factors such as hormonal and environmental factors.

Besides that, my post and link were a response to the idea that "XX and Xy are how we should define gender and you can't change that" idea.

Androgen Sensitivity Syndrome isn't super common, but enough so that it is a clear enough example that genetics is only one factor in our sex, and specifically how our bodies appear according to our practical use of gender. Biology is by no means a simple science.

Like, seriously, look at the pictures on the link. Are they male or female? Man or woman?
I have looked up information on it.

To take it to an apex... there is an anomaly of a fallopian pregnancy that requires an abortion for the safety of the mother...ergo all abortions are necessary for the safety of the mother.

You are taking an anomaly and declaring it to be normal, which it is not.

So I'm not sure what your point is. PS... I usually don't open up spoilers.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
And yet WHO ICD-11 and current DSM-V GAC have not deviated just because the US and UK are exceptionally duscriminatory and have a long history of medical discrimination towards all LGBTQ+ , and most countries with aforementioned better healthcare still provide GAC. And none of them say that trans women aren't women.

Recently thee have been several long threads on this topic, sort of a can of worms at this point. But ask yourself this: Do you believe the medical industry always has your best interests at heart? Do you automatically agree with all of their policies?

Yeah, there's such a tiny number of people in same sex relationships, therefore we shouldn't be inconvenienced in any way have our rights stripped by having to call them married!

I'll leave it to you to think thru why this is an apples and oranges comparison.

That's not what false dilemma means.

Go back and read your own words. And if you still disagree, re-post them on your response and I'll explain.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
What rights o others have been damaged? The right to be an *******? Are you sure that you want to defend a term that was probably deleted by the censorbot?

The fact that you've resorted to slurs demonstrates how weak your argument is.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
It is the debate when people speak of trans related things as if anything about it is new. Premodern societies largely just didn't care about it and accepted it and sometimes even celebrating it, with an assortment of evidence that show even the gods have been transgender and known to cross dress on occasion.
It is the debate when someone says the medical side is new, which also just not a true claim at all as in just five years the first documented medical transition happened a century ago. For many and lots of people it is new information, no doubt, but there's nothing new going on about it.

I'm sure many people make claims like the ones you're addressing. But I'm not.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The fact that you've resorted to slurs demonstrates how weak your argument is.
What slur? It is an accurate description of how some people act towards others. When one refuses a simple courtesy that does not harm them and harms others in the process that is the correct term to use. You will not find a better one.

I will apply it to myself. If I harm others unnecessarily simply because I am offended by some aspect of their life I am being an *******.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No rule can change the heart. We can make the law "Thou shalt no commit murder" - and there will still be murder. However, does that mean I should passively keep quiet when murder has been committed? I am not equating murder with any single object that we are talking about but rather just the principle. A life without guidelines, imv, is the basis of anarchism.
But what does "murder" have to do with what I originally was responding to that dealt with transgender procedures, gay issues, etc? Or maybe you thought I was responding to something else?

I'm confused. :oops:
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But what does "murder" have to do with what I originally was responding to that dealt with transgender procedures, gay issues, etc? Or maybe you thought I was responding to something else?

I'm confused. :oops:
No... what I was answering was the "law" portion... or maybe I just misunderstood. Personally I would take the position (because of the long lasting effects, the fact that many are now de-transitioning, none of it has long-term studies), that there should be a law until one is old enough (18 currently) to make a decision about their own bodies. When one is mature enough, as we know that many children readjust their identity over time, one can make a free choice of what they want to do with their bodes whether transgender procedures, homosexuality et al.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Transgender people have existed for as long as humans have, but medical science now provides them with the ability to change their bodies so that their bodies are closer to their gender. This is not going to be a perfect replication of being born a specific sex, but it has still provided many people with significant and sometimes life-saving mental health benefits:

You and I have been disputing these claims for the last several weeks. You do not have the rock solid "all the experts agree" foundation that you think you do. A few of the studies upon which a large portion of policies have been built, are now facing harsher scrutiny and are not holding up well to this scrutiny.

Remember that you've chosen to defend the side that is making several EXTRAORDINARY claims:

- That children who are universally viewed as too young for many adult activities can somehow, accurately appreciate the long term impacts of having their bodies permanently mutilated.

- That in an industry rife with profiteering, extremely expensive medical interventions - in this one instance - are above reproach.

- That all other environmental factors can be ignored

- That we cannot call this a "disorder"

- That we can ignore the sharp rise in suicidal thoughts across all teenagers.

==

Your side is making all of these extraordinary claims and your evidence is shaky. Not too many years ago electro-shock therapy was considered good care. So was thalidomide. Odds are that in a few years much of the approved "gender affirming care" in practice today will be seen as equally tragic.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
These are not easy issues to resolve, nor do I think a perfect solution will happen anytime soon. However, I don't see the solution as the erasure or dismissal of trans people or their identity either. The solution is not to call them "delusional," deny or dismiss the significant medical evidence about their condition, or say they should just be forced to live as the gender matching their biological sex even though many suffer or even die because of untreated gender dysphoria.

stawmen.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
So when you say "It's no longer uncommon to see trans women sporting full, thick beards" you aren't speaking from personal experience, but an internet search will tell me how common it is now? Well, I did a search and didn't find anything that supports your allegation.

Wow, just wow! So many posters here claiming they know that a thing does not exist! yikes!
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Recently thee have been several long threads on this topic, sort of a can of worms at this point. But ask yourself this: Do you believe the medical industry always has your best interests at heart? Do you automatically agree with all of their policies?
This is also very akin to climate deniers who only ask this question in bad faith. As if any doubt (which science is built on) automatically makes an open window for their particular rhetoric. Where the vast majority of scientists which are in agreement with climate change are either brainwashed or part of some nefarious agenda.

Similarly, medical consensus is that gender =/= sex, gender has sociological, cultural, psychological and biological components, including trans people whose brain's neurology is closer to their gender identity than chromosomal or gonadal sex, that GAC effectively treats gender dysphoria, unlike body dismorphia or identity disorders, and that use of puberty blockers is safe and effective, with a long history of use in both cis and Trans kids for temporarily pausing puberty.
I'll leave it to you to think thru why this is an apples and oranges comparison.
How hard was it to not directly list a fallacy here? Lol

Of course it's not apples to oranges. The size of the discriminated minority is not a question when making anti discrimination policy. There is no number it needs to be before it becomes wrong. Though that sort of argument has certainly been levied against change before, including gay marriage where 'why we throwing up such a fuss for a small number of people' was used.
Go back and read your own words. And if you still disagree, re-post them on your response and I'll explain.
No, I'm not doing that for you. You can either reply or not, but I won't repeat myself. You can go back and use the quote feature from that post if you so choose.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Good grief this is like pulling teeth.

I can't find anything backing up the claims you're making.:shrug:
Would you be so kind as to share the things you've seen that have led you to believe in the things you do? Pretty please with a cherry on top?

What search phrases have you tried? Tell me them and I will help.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
A biological male is your traditional XY chromosome male. A transmale would be any combination of those chromosomes besides XY (remember there ix XYY, XXY and XXX and maybe others.

EDIT: There are a bunch of others. Besides the standard XX and XY there is X, XXY, XYY, XXX, XXYY, XYYY, and XYYYY.

Wow!

Is a transgender man with XX chromosomes a man and a transgender woman with XY chromosomes a woman?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
This is also very akin to climate deniers who only ask this question in bad faith. As if any doubt (which science is built on) automatically makes an open window for their particular rhetoric. Where the vast majority of scientists which are in agreement with climate change are either brainwashed or part of some nefarious agenda.

OMFG. Yes indeed, critics have a toolkit of debating techniques... and so do apologists!!!

Thank you captain obvious.

Similarly, medical consensus is that gender =/= sex, gender has sociological, cultural, psychological and biological components, including trans people whose brain's neurology is closer to their gender identity than chromosomal or gonadal sex, that GAC effectively treats gender dysphoria, unlike body dismorphia or identity disorders, and that use of puberty blockers is safe and effective, with a long history of use in both cis and Trans kids for temporarily pausing puberty.

That consensus was slap-dash at best, and is now falling apart.

Puberty blockers are safe!!!!! There are many studies showing the opposite. For your claim to be true, there must be no opposing studies, and you must have long term results. You don't seem to realize that YOU are the one making extraordinary claims.
The size of the discriminated minority is not a question when making anti discrimination policy. There is no number it needs to be before it becomes wrong. Though that sort of argument has certainly been levied against change before, including gay marriage where 'why we throwing up such a fuss for a small number of people' was used.

several strawmen.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No... what I was answering was the "law" portion... or maybe I just misunderstood. Personally I would take the position (because of the long lasting effects, the fact that many are now de-transitioning, none of it has long-term studies), that there should be a law until one is old enough (18 currently) to make a decision about their own bodies. When one is mature enough, as we know that many children readjust their identity over time, one can make a free choice of what they want to do with their bodes whether transgender procedures, homosexuality et al.
Less than 1% detransition and more than half of detransitioners did so because their health, financial or personal supports failed. And many of those retransition at a later date.

Further, even detransitioners who decides they weren't trans, a minority in the group, overwhelmingly say to not use their position to support ending gender affirming care, and do not regret their journey and would not want political groups putting that word in their mouths.

If anything, they want comprehensive team based medical care, both counseling, psychiatriatry, psychotherapy, endocrinology etc, to be more affordable amd accessible so people can maximally explore their options and evaluations and make the most informed consent.

Also, cis kids have invasive gender affirming care far more often than trans kids do. From hormone treatment for cosmetic reasons like lack of or too much body hair for comfort, to both breast reduction and augmentation which thousands of minors have every year in the United states alone, to circumcision, which is a routine surgery I would sooner ban, as it has actual regret much higher. Lol.

Edit: forgot forced genital conformity surgery for intersex kids which... yikes.
 
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