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The "woke" witchhunt turning on its own.

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
A child cannot make these life altering decisions and when it harms children the parents should not be able to make the decision for them either. Why are the detrans voices ignored and rejected from the conversation?

A child cannot make a potentially life altering decision to be circumcised, either -- and about 1.5% of them do go wrong. Yet, over 90% of Israeli and Muslim males, 86.3% South Korean males 80% of American males, 58% of Australians, 45% in South Africa, 20.7% in the United Kingdom are circumcised. That brings the total to billions of circumcised males, and 1.5% of billions is still a number in the hundreds of millions of males having potentially life-altering surgeries. WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION, and without the government giving a hoot.

Face it, the focus here is on homosexual persons, and nothing else. Why not just admit it?
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Well, goodness, if the PA school is large enough to have an LGBTQ club, then I would say that is a part of that school's culture, since the club is included within the culture.

And I'd ask how much money is spent in NYC schools putting on Gilbert and Sullivan operettas, with casts dressed as Japanese folks (The Mikado) or fairies (Iolanthe) or pirates (Pirates of Penzance)? Surely operettas from over 100 years ago in England have little to do with American culture.

What is the point of doing those shows with parental permissions? What if parents don't like Japanese people, or pirates (even if they are truly just caricatures of the Japanese and pirates)?

Humans have been dressing in the costumes of other cultures, other races and other species -- as well as other sexes -- for thousands of years of recorded history. What is that makes it so especially terrifying just now, and only when it is men dressing as (caricatures of) women?
The sexual nature of it specifically in elementary schools. That is objectionable.


Do you agree with these cases?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The sexual nature of it specifically in elementary schools. That is objectionable.


Do you agree with these cases?
But that kind of performance can also happen with non-drag shows as well.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
A child cannot make these life altering decisions and when it harms children the parents should not be able to make the decision for them either. Why are the detrans voices ignored and rejected from the conversation?
@Clizby, I'd like to quote something from the archives of the boarding school that I went to for my high schooling (it was a boys private boarding school). This is from our "Spring Festival," in 1963, when I was in Grade 9.

The Grade Nine group gave us the best piece of dramatic acting of the evening in their play, "The Valiant." This was the story of a condemned man who steadily refused to disclose his true identity to the sympathetic warden. AE (that's me), as the prisoner, and HM, as the warden, gave excellent performances. Both boys exhibited warmth of character, an understanding of their roles, and a possession of stage presence. Their talents should be encouraged. JL gave a good account of himself as the chaplin. DD would have been an excellent Josephine had he not contracted a severe case of giggles which marred the entire performance.​
DD (who was my roommate that school year) was performing in drag. He was a boy, dressed as a girl, acting as a girl, pretending to be a girl, in an audience full of schoolboys. As I recall, none of the boys in the school (which included grades 7 and up) was marred for life for having witnessed it. DD is, in fact, married with children and grandchildren, and living on Mercer Island next to Seattle, Washington.

But I wonder why you chose the clip you did? Have you determined that it represents the totality of all such performances in schools in the United States? Is it the case that we must ban one entire art form (I use the term loosely) because one or a very few actors misuse it?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
A child cannot make these life altering decisions and when it harms children the parents should not be able to make the decision for them either. Why are the detrans voices ignored and rejected from the conversation?

Why do you feel entitled to make healthcare decisions for others? What makes you think you know better than the experts invovled the various disciplines involved in a medical transition?
And, no, detrans and regrets haven't been ignored. They've been a serious medical concern, such a concern that it lead to the creation of the WPATH Standards of Care and the number of those who regretted it fell and plummeted to about 1%
And why don't you listen to detransitioners? They mostly don't do it over regrets. They want to have a kid then transition. They don't have access to medical care. It's a hard thing to do because of people like you. And, yes, regret has been a concern. If you'd actually listen to the exoerts you'd know that.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
A child cannot make a potentially life altering decision to be circumcised, either -- and about 1.5% of them do go wrong. Yet, over 90% of Israeli and Muslim males, 86.3% South Korean males 80% of American males, 58% of Australians, 45% in South Africa, 20.7% in the United Kingdom are circumcised. That brings the total to billions of circumcised males, and 1.5% of billions is still a number in the hundreds of millions of males having potentially life-altering surgeries. WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION, and without the government giving a hoot.
Then ban circumcisions. I am ok with that.

Face it, the focus here is on homosexual persons, and nothing else. Why not just admit it?
Because it is not true. I dislike the sexual nature of the events for children as I detailed in my last post.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
@Clizby, I'd like to quote something from the archives of the boarding school that I went to for my high schooling (it was a boys private boarding school). This is from our "Spring Festival," in 1963, when I was in Grade 9.

The Grade Nine group gave us the best piece of dramatic acting of the evening in their play, "The Valiant." This was the story of a condemned man who steadily refused to disclose his true identity to the sympathetic warden. AE (that's me), as the prisoner, and HM, as the warden, gave excellent performances. Both boys exhibited warmth of character, an understanding of their roles, and a possession of stage presence. Their talents should be encouraged. JL gave a good account of himself as the chaplin. DD would have been an excellent Josephine had he not contracted a severe case of giggles which marred the entire performance.​
DD (who was my roommate that school year) was performing in drag. He was a boy, dressed as a girl, acting as a girl, pretending to be a girl, in an audience full of schoolboys. As I recall, none of the boys in the school (which included grades 7 and up) was marred for life for having witnessed it. DD is, in fact, married with children and grandchildren, and living on Mercer Island next to Seattle, Washington.

But I wonder why you chose the clip you did? Have you determined that it represents the totality of all such performances in schools in the United States? Is it the case that we must ban one entire art form (I use the term loosely) because one or a very few actors misuse it?
You are trying to conflate men dressing up as women with a sexualized drag show for children to legitimize the latter. Can we both agree that the videos I showed are inappropriate? Did you friend spread his legs in front of all the boys asking for tips? It is absurd to think that the videos I showed are the totality of the trans movement. But what I showed is what I am objecting to. Your insistence that I am against trans people in general is where you are going wrong.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
You are trying to conflate men dressing up as women with a sexualized drag show for children to legitimize the latter. Can we both agree that the videos I showed are inappropriate? Did you friend spread his legs in front of all the boys asking for tips? It is absurd to think that the videos I showed are the totality of the trans movement. But what I showed is what I am objecting to. Your insistence that I am against trans people in general is where you are going wrong.
And I'm asking you -- is that what every drag show is about? As a gay man, I can tell you I've seen lots of drag shows in my life (I frankly don't care for them, but they happen anyway). And to be quite honest, I saw very little like that video. Dame Edna Everedge performs on TV in drag -- and has done so live in the Royal Box with then-Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales. Did he do any of that? Nope.

You see, this is the problem with the internet -- lots of people troll the one and only terrible video they can, and then the haters convince themselves that "they must all be like that." It is, if you will, a quite striking inability to actually look for some other trees to see if the whole forest is comprised of only one species. And then they all run into the streets in terrible panic, screaming "ban them all!"

The internet and social media are turning out trolls and dupes at an astonishing rate.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
Why do you feel entitled to make healthcare decisions for others? What makes you think you know better than the experts invovled the various disciplines involved in a medical transition?
And, no, detrans and regrets haven't been ignored. They've been a serious medical concern, such a concern that it lead to the creation of the WPATH Standards of Care and the number of those who regretted it fell and plummeted to about 1%
And why don't you listen to detransitioners? They mostly don't do it over regrets. They want to have a kid then transition. They don't have access to medical care. It's a hard thing to do because of people like you. And, yes, regret has been a concern. If you'd actually listen to the exoerts you'd know that.
I have listened to a lot of video's on the detrans voices site. We do not allow parents or children to decide whether they want to have sex with an adult or not, why should we let them decide to permanently change their bodies?
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
And I'm asking you -- is that what every drag show is about?
No, I have been pretty clear that it is what is in the video that I object to.

As a gay man, I can tell you I've seen lots of drag shows in my life (I frankly don't care for them, but they happen anyway). And to be quite honest, I saw very little like that video. Dame Edna Everedge performs on TV in drag -- and has done so live in the Royal Box with then-Prince Charles, the Prince of Wales. Did he do any of that? Nope.
As I have said that is not what I am talking about.

You see, this is the problem with the internet -- lots of people troll the one and only terrible video they can, and then the haters convince themselves that "they must all be like that." It is, if you will, a quite striking inability to actually look for some other trees to see if the whole forest is comprised of only one species. And then they all run into the streets in terrible panic, screaming "ban them all!"
I don't think that. Again I have been specific that what is in the videos in front of children is what I object to. I have NEVER objected to drag shows in general. Do what you want, just not a sexualized drag show in front of children.

The internet and social media are turning out trolls and dupes at an astonishing rate.
Are you going to answer my question?

Do you think what is in the videos I posted is wrong?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I have listened to a lot of video's on the detrans voices site. We do not allow parents or children to decide whether they want to have sex with an adult or not, why should we let them decide to permanently change their bodies?
Sex isn't a medical procedure guided by a team of treatment members. Try again.
And it matters not how many detrans things you've listened to, they are still a verg minute minority of those who transitioned.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What is that makes it so especially terrifying just now, and only when it is men dressing as (caricatures of) women?
I think it's apparent in their language that shows us to them it is something new. Much like with homosexuality, they don't understand that a safer and more inclusive environment doesn't make more queers it just has more queers feeling more safe to step out if the closest. No different than how Trump empowered the wrong sorts of people in feeling safe enough to show us their true colors.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What is the purpose of having a drag show in public schools? Why would anyone support them doing this without parents permission?
The Toronto Raptors mascot visited my school for an assembly once. The reasons are similar.

If parents want to teach their kids about trans issues and take them to a drag show then whatever, no one is stopping them.
In several states, they are stopping them.

But parents that think their kid is too young or they are not appropriate for their child should not have to have them subjected to this without their knowledge.

Thinking back, I don't remember them asking parental permission before my elementary school class had a visit from someone who taught us about Judaism and let us try matzoh and latkes. In hindsight, this very well may have ticked off some antisemitic parents, but in that case and the one you describe, I don't think public schools should be catering to bigots.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
The Toronto Raptors mascot visited my school for an assembly once. The reasons are similar.


In several states, they are stopping them.



Thinking back, I don't remember them asking parental permission before my elementary school class had a visit from someone who taught us about Judaism and let us try matzoh and latkes. In hindsight, this very well may have ticked off some antisemitic parents, but in that case and the one you describe, I don't think public schools should be catering to bigots.
I am only objecting to the kind of things in the video's I posted. Do you think what is in the videos I posted is appropriate for school children?
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I am only objecting to the kind of things in the video's I posted. Do you think what is in the videos I posted is appropriate for school children?
I actually don't care if children go to this provided the parents sign off on it. Ditto when parents take their kids to rated R movies, which happens copiously every single day. And I wish the public would stop being purity police because it almost always stems from racism, classism, misogyny or homophobia. 'Think of the children' is an often abused cheap appeal to emotion used to supress a marginalized group. Not based on evidenced harm towards children causative to what they're complaining about.

why should we let them decide to permanently change their bodies
As a cis woman who had permanent body modification surgery as a minor (breast reduction at 14), I can answer that the consequences of not doing so was ruled as less advantageous than possible risks.

But despite the paranoia, the vast majority of gender affirming care for minors is not surgical, it's hormonal (which I also had as a cis minor, gasp).
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
The sexual nature of it specifically in elementary schools. That is objectionable.


Do you agree with these cases?
No. Not all of these drag shows have sexually provocative dance moves. Reminds me of the more socially accepted beauty pageants for little girls. How do you feel about them? Should they be allowed to have stripper poles and twerking? Are you actually concerned for children or using them as an excuse to lash out at transvestites?
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
What this amounts to is not about dance moves. We've known for years that pageants allow kids to dress and perform provocative dance routines. That is just socially accepted.


It's about the inherent social maligning of tranvestites and trans women in general. And it's an obviously growing cancer.
 
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