The "woke" witchhunt turning on its own.

[Shadow Wolf]

I didn't say there were laws being enacted to limit their freedoms

There are laws being passed doing just that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You don't need to permanently change a child's body to save their life. There used to be treatments for gender dysphoria and teh like that did not involve altering children's bodies.

Such as?

 

[SkepticThinker]

So at kids beauty pageants these kids are lifting up their dresses and spreading their legs out? I have never seen that. And BTW I think beauty pageants are wrong in general for kids.

No. They dress kids in sexually provocative bikinis and evening gowns and makeup that adults typically wear and have them prance around and perform sexually provocative dance moves. I've always thought it gross and exploitative when adults do it, never mind when little girls are doing it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Are you going to answer my question?

Do you think what is in the videos I posted is wrong?

Yes, I do. Are you answered?

I am only objecting to the kind of things in the video's I posted. Do you think what is in the videos I posted is appropriate for school children?

And THAT is not quite true, is it? You introduced that video quite a ways into the thread (Post #82), after several posts (66, 70, 71, 78, 79) in which you were defending various anti-LGBTQ stances in general. And the reason you thought to introduce that one (which even I think is stupid and wrong in front of children) was to instill in readers the impression that this is WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT. That is the great evil of social media, and the reason I said that it is turning out trolls and dupes at a stupendous rate. Because it is -- that's how it works:

• Show people the worst,
• make the claim (a lie) that the worst is representative of the whole,
• repeat the lie until it is generally believed,
• Job done.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

@Clizby Wampuscat, let me just add to my last post that Ru Paul's "Drag Race" has been on for 15 seasons now, and Canada has a copy-cat called Canada's Drag Race for 3 seasons. Do you suppose that those programs display the same behaviours as the video you chose to post?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I saw a drag show just a couple of weeks ago at a street festival I was attending.
I've gotta say, I was kind of disappointed. I mean, it was a tad dull. I was waiting for someone to start tearing their clothes off and pole dancing and stuff but I got absolutely nothing even close to that. Just a bit of lip syncing and that was it.

 

[SomeRandom]

I saw a drag show just a couple of weeks ago at a street festival I was attending.
I've gotta say, I was kind of disappointed. I mean, it was a tad dull. I was waiting for someone to start tearing their clothes off and pole dancing and stuff but I got absolutely nothing even close to that. Just a bit of lip syncing and that was it.

Lol Bugs Bunny was doing drag in the 30s. Even going as far as to provocatively strut on purpose as to distract Elmer Fudd for comedy.
Guess Warner Bros was promoting the gay agenda to all of our grandparents

 

[ImmortalFlame]

There are laws being passed doing just that.

There are definitely laws DOING that, but I am willing to bet certain people are of the position that, unless the law explicitly names groups and explicitly and unambiguously says it's targeting their freedoms then they don't count. Kind of like how people are spinning the "don't say gay" bill as not targeting gay people because it doesn't technically mention them.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That's a colloquial reference based on the logical conclusion of what the bill entails. What it does is strictly prohibit discussion of sexuality and gender from classrooms, effectively limiting - if not outright prohibiting - any kind of education about sexuality and gender.

It is called Parental Rights in education Bill BTW. It limits instruction on gender identity and orientation from K-3rd grade. It also makes sure that parents are informed about what is being taught in the classroom and health services offered at the school.

The vast majority of gender-affirming care for minors is fully reversible, and there are many instances where "permanently changing their body" DOES save their life. You think children never had life-saving amputations or organ removal?

There are adults that have chronic health issues as an adult because of some of these procedures.

I never said you did. I said you ignored the point. I pointed to bills and social movements being examples of widespread hatred and prejudice against LGBT people and you responded by asking for "laws restricting their freedom", as if that's the ONLY acceptable standard for discrimination. As my analogy showed, and you seem to agree with, you don't have to have EXPLICIT LAWS that restrict a group's freedom in order for a political body to enact policies or push ideas that directly harm people in that group. Like I said, you KNOW this, which is why you are so keen to change the subject from the clearly and obviously prejudicial attitudes and behaviours of lawmakers to "well, have they done any LAWS against being gay?"

You LITERALLY just accused others of "arguing points I never made or believe" and here YOU are asking me to answer for an argument I'm not making.

I'll say write it clearly for you:

A group doesn't just have to have their rights explicitly restricted BY LAW in order to be victims of SOCIAL, ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL OPPRESSION. I have given MULTIPLE EXAMPLES of things that DIRECTLY HARM LGBT people or foster negative attitudes towards them that are, in many ways, being pushed by LAWMAKERS.

These are the things I am talking about. Address them.

What are they then? All you have said is that lawmakers have attitudes and beliefs you disagree with. That will always be the case. What specific laws do you disagree with that is oppressing LGBTQ+ people? If you have posted them already please direct me to the post number.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

No, it's literally the consequences of the bill. The bill specifically means that discussion of sexuality and gender cannot be had in the classroom, effectively meaning that discussion or acknowledgement of homosexuality (among other things) is prohibited in schools and children as expressly forbidden from learning about it. Hell, a Republican amendment that was attempted to be added to the bill explicitly wanted to force teachers to "out" LGBT students to their parents (Amendment to Florida’s ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill would require schools to out students)

That's literally the only actual purpose of the bill. It serves no function whatsoever other than to limit childrens education about the existence of LGBT people.

Yes, from K-3rd grade only. Let the parents decide how to inform them of LGBTQ people prior to that.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It is called Parental Rights in education Bill BTW. It limits instruction on gender identity and orientation from K-3rd grade. It also makes sure that parents are informed about what is being taught in the classroom and health services offered at the school.
...

Can you give link to that law?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I watched the video, which was about as tame as your average football halftime show. So a lot of fuss about nothing anyone cares about until queer people get involved.

Do I think parents should be accurately appraised of what's going on (within reason) so they can make their own judgements on attendance? Yes. Do I think kids shouod be strictly barred, categorically, from being exposed to drag, pride, trans peoppe existing the way many Republicans want, using instances like these to try and paint every outcome the same? Absolutely not.

I have never seen a high school halftime show like that. Also, I do not let my family watch the NFL halftime shows because of the nature of some of them. It has nothing to do with LGBTQ people. It has to do with the sexual nature of the show for children. Also, I don't object to any child knowing that LGBTQ people exist. If you want to address that then ok, if you just want to question my motives we are done.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Such as?

Acceptance of the gender they are born as. Didn't this used to be the treatment? Treating a condition with concepts that are contradictory is not helpful. Like:

1. They say that gender is a social construct while promoting that a person can be trapped in the wrong body.
2. How can gender identity be unchangeable with a changing social construct of gender?
3. If gender identity is innate, how can it be fluid?
4. If gender identities such as man and woman are objective enough to be an identity how can there be a spectrum?
5. Apart from having a male body what does it feel like to be a man?
6. Our feelings don't determine anything else objectively about us such as height, age, ethnicity etc. why is it different with gender?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Acceptance of the gender they are born as. Didn't this used to be the treatment? Treating a condition with concepts that are contradictory is not helpful. Like:

1. They say that gender is a social construct while promoting that a person can be trapped in the wrong body.
2. How can gender identity be unchangeable with a changing social construct of gender?
3. If gender identity is innate, how can it be fluid?
4. If gender identities such as man and woman are objective enough to be an identity how can there be a spectrum?
5. Apart from having a male body what does it feel like to be a man?
6. Our feelings don't determine anything else objectively about us such as height, age, ethnicity etc. why is it different with gender?

Before I answer, I have to check something:
Do you accept that freedom, rights, responsibility and morality are subjective?
Do you accept that while something in a person is subjective, in some cases it doesn't mean it can't be control that as such?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

No. They dress kids in sexually provocative bikinis and evening gowns and makeup that adults typically wear and have them prance around and perform sexually provocative dance moves. I've always thought it gross and exploitative when adults do it, never mind when little girls are doing it.

I am against this.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Yes, I do. Are you answered?

Yes, thanks. I agree.

And THAT is not quite true, is it? You introduced that video quite a ways into the thread (Post #82), after several posts (66, 70, 71, 78, 79) in which you were defending various anti-LGBTQ stances in general. And the reason you thought to introduce that one (which even I think is stupid and wrong in front of children) was to instill in readers the impression that this is WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT. That is the great evil of social media, and the reason I said that it is turning out trolls and dupes at a stupendous rate. Because it is -- that's how it works:

• Show people the worst,
• make the claim (a lie) that the worst is representative of the whole,
• repeat the lie until it is generally believed,
• Job done.

Not at all. I never said drag shows are only about what I posted. I ONLY said what I posted was wrong. I have said repeatedly the opposite. You have to read a lot into what i said to get your accusations, which is how social media works. You are the one thinking the worst of people not me.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

@Clizby Wampuscat, let me just add to my last post that Ru Paul's "Drag Race" has been on for 15 seasons now, and Canada has a copy-cat called Canada's Drag Race for 3 seasons. Do you suppose that those programs display the same behaviours as the video you chose to post?

I never said they did. I ONLY said what is in the video's I posted was wrong and you agreed. You are the one doing what you are accusing me of. That if someone is against sexualized drag shows for kids they must be against all drag shows. That is untrue.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Can you give link to that law?

House Bill 1557 (2022) - The Florida Senate

www.flsenate.gov

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Before I answer, I have to check something:
Do you accept that freedom, rights, responsibility and morality are subjective?

Yes

Do you accept that while something in a person is subjective, in some cases it doesn't mean it can't be control that as such?

Can you explain further what you mean? I am not sure I understand the question.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Acceptance of the gender they are born as. Didn't this used to be the treatment? Treating a condition with concepts that are contradictory is not helpful. Like:

1. They say that gender is a social construct while promoting that a person can be trapped in the wrong body.
2. How can gender identity be unchangeable with a changing social construct of gender?
3. If gender identity is innate, how can it be fluid?
4. If gender identities such as man and woman are objective enough to be an identity how can there be a spectrum?
5. Apart from having a male body what does it feel like to be a man?

Your questions create the impression that you aren't willing to give the issue any proper thought.

I mean, have you even reflected on your own gender identity? Is your gender identity only as shallow as "I have 'boy parts' so I must be a boy"?

6. Our feelings don't determine anything else objectively about us such as height, age, ethnicity etc. why is it different with gender?

News flash: ethnicity isn't objective either.