The "woke" witchhunt turning on its own.

[Shadow Wolf]

As a cis woman who had permanent body modification surgery as a minor (breast reduction at 14), I can answer that the consequences of not doing so was ruled as less advantageous than possible risks.

But despite the paranoia, the vast majority of gender affirming care for minors is not surgical, it's hormonal (which I also had as a cis minor, gasp).

So does that make you a super witch?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

People have always disagreed with LBGT lifestyles. But where are laws being enacted to hinder their freedoms?

I didn't say there were laws being enacted to limit their freedoms (although undeniably there are many Republicans in power who want that - there are popular right-wingers in power right now who want to repeal gay marriage, for instance) I said that there are social movements and bills that target them. You don't have to enact laws to limit freedoms in order for prejudice to exist, or for cultural attitudes towards a group to be negatively influenced by political talking points. I even gave the specific example of the groomer panic, but there's also the "don't say gay" bill. Do you think things like these don't harm people in those groups? You know this happens.

All I see is laws to protect children from being transitioned and protecting women's sports.

You can frame it however you want. It's pretty obvious that's just narrativising. Gender affirming care for children saves lives, and overturning internationally recognised and researched medical advice and preventing children from accessing the medical care they need is abhorrent, and the mere notion that Republican lawmakers care even the slightest bit about "protecting women's sports" is laughable.

What rights are being taken away from LGBTQ people?

I never said they were having rights taken away. If the Nazis never took away the rights of Jews, would it still be okay for them to run antisemitic propaganda campaigns and tell their supporters that Jews are evil groomers?

No. Obviously you understand this. Don't pretend you don't understand this.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

What has happened is that the pushback is about transgenderism if that is a word not pushback against anyone else in thge LGBT+ community but all others are lumped in claiming these bills are against them. They are not. What people are against in general is transitioning children and an appropriate age to talk about these issues in the schools or at all.

This is just my own observation, but it seems like conservatives realized they lost the cultural battle over homosexuality and so are turning their cultural war against transgender folks. Some of the arguments are exactly the same: concerns about being raped in bathrooms, corrupting the children.

The LGBTQ community became a community for a reason. It appears to have to do with gender roles and the assumptions about sexuality that get expressed by folks who don't understand the community and turn gender or sexuality against them. For instance, this includes the use of similar slurs against both groups and stereotyped assumptions such as in homosexual relationships, one person plays the part of the man or woman or that if someone crossdresses (let alone is transgender), they must be gay.

I can see why an attack on one subgroup within the community may be seen as an attack on the whole.

 

[Colt]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/02/business/chick-fil-a-fake-controversy/index.html

Thoughts?

Chick-filet seems to hire diverse, decent people who are professional, hard working, polite and very effective as representative of a quality brand. Every Chick-filet I've been to has been run the same way and provides a quality product!

 

[Father Heathen]

Chick-filet seems to hire diverse, decent people who are professional, hard working, polite and very effective as representative of a quality brand. Every Chick-filet I've been to has been run the same way and provides a quality product!

Is Chick-Filet a rival copycat of Chic-fil-A?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I actually don't care if children go to this provided the parents sign off on it. Ditto when parents take their kids to rated R movies, which happens copiously every single day. And I wish the public would stop being purity police because it almost always stems from racism, classism, misogyny or homophobia. 'Think of the children' is an often abused cheap appeal to emotion used to supress a marginalized group. Not based on evidenced harm towards children causative to what they're complaining about.


As a cis woman who had permanent body modification surgery as a minor (breast reduction at 14), I can answer that the consequences of not doing so was ruled as less advantageous than possible risks.

But despite the paranoia, the vast majority of gender affirming care for minors is not surgical, it's hormonal (which I also had as a cis minor, gasp).

I agree with you that if the parents are ok with it then ok. This has not been the case in some instances. This is all I have been saying and it is telling how many people just cannot get themselves to say it is wrong.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

No. Not all of these drag shows have sexually provocative dance moves. Reminds me of the more socially accepted beauty pageants for little girls. How do you feel about them? Should they be allowed to have stripper poles and twerking? Are you actually concerned for children or using them as an excuse to lash out at transvestites?

I have NEVER said all drag shows are sexually provocative. Never. All I have said is that what is in the videos I posted is wrong. Sexually provocative drag shows in children's schools are wrong. Why cannot anyone at least say that. A man lifting up his dress, spreading his legs out with a tip jar in between them at a school is wrong. I think you think it is wrong as well but you are too afraid to say so because you don't want to be called names by others. Stand up for what is right and who give a flying F what others say about it. I don't care if people are trans or do drag shows, or are gay etc.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Beauty pageants for kids?

So at kids beauty pageants these kids are lifting up their dresses and spreading their legs out? I have never seen that. And BTW I think beauty pageants are wrong in general for kids.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What this amounts to is not about dance moves. We've known for years that pageants allow kids to dress and perform provocative dance routines. That is just socially accepted.


It's about the inherent social maligning of tranvestites and trans women in general. And it's an obviously growing cancer.

Right I am not upset that men are spreading their legs out in front of children with tip jars. I am upset about trans people. Do you even care about children? Do you approve of what is in the videos I posted?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I didn't say there were laws being enacted to limit their freedoms (although undeniably there are many Republicans in power who want that - there are popular right-wingers in power right now who want to repeal gay marriage, for instance) I said that there are social movements and bills that target them. You don't have to enact laws to limit freedoms in order for prejudice to exist, or for cultural attitudes towards a group to be negatively influenced by political talking points. I even gave the specific example of the groomer panic, but there's also the "don't say gay" bill. Do you think things like these don't harm people in those groups? You know this happens.

No bill says you cannot say the word gay. I am sure there are people that want to do all sorts of things. There are people that don't want me to have a say in my child's education for instance. Attitudes and prejudice will always be a part of our society because people generally suck. The issue is keeping them from enacting laws that are discriminatory or unjust. That is what civil debate is about, something the left has lost the ability to do.

You can frame it however you want. It's pretty obvious that's just narrativising. Gender affirming care for children saves lives, and overturning internationally recognised and researched medical advice and preventing children from accessing the medical care they need is abhorrent, and the mere notion that Republican lawmakers care even the slightest bit about "protecting women's sports" is laughable.

You don't need to permanently change a child's body to save their life. There used to be treatments for gender dysphoria and teh like that did not involve altering children's bodies.

I never said they were having rights taken away. If the Nazis never took away the rights of Jews, would it still be okay for them to run antisemitic propaganda campaigns and tell their supporters that Jews are evil groomers?

I never said any of these things are ok. I have never said them. Everyone here is arguing points I never made or believe.

No. Obviously you understand this. Don't pretend you don't understand this.

Then tell me, what rights do LGBTQ+ people don't have that I have?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

This is just my own observation, but it seems like conservatives realized they lost the cultural battle over homosexuality and so are turning their cultural war against transgender folks. Some of the arguments are exactly the same: concerns about being raped in bathrooms, corrupting the children.

The LGBTQ community became a community for a reason. It appears to have to do with gender roles and the assumptions about sexuality that get expressed by folks who don't understand the community and turn gender or sexuality against them. For instance, this includes the use of similar slurs against both groups and stereotyped assumptions such as in homosexual relationships, one person plays the part of the man or woman or that if someone crossdresses (let alone is transgender), they must be gay.

Religious conservatives are nutbags. They are not conservatives in the sense of limited government and promoting liberty. They are trying to establish their beliefs into law. That is not me nor what conservatism is.

I can see why an attack on one subgroup within the community may be seen as an attack on the whole.

This is how many on the left argues nowadays. They group people together and then make assumptions about them, it is dishonest. I am a republican so I must be religious, anti gay, hate women etc. It is ridiculous. What I care about is the video's I posted. Do you think what is in those video's is right?

 

[metis]

No bill says you cannot say the word gay.

That's not the point of "don't say gay": What Does ‘Don’t Say Gay’ Actually Say? (Published 2022)

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That's not the point of "don't say gay": What Does ‘Don’t Say Gay’ Actually Say? (Published 2022)

What do you object to in the bill? The term don' t say gay is a term made up to bias what people think the bill says.

 

[metis]

What do you object to in the bill? The term don' t say gay is a term made up to bias what people think the bill says.

Because I'm a retired educator who thinks students should be taught the truth and not some "sanitized" bigotry for someone's political campaign.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No bill says you cannot say the word gay.

That's a colloquial reference based on the logical conclusion of what the bill entails. What it does is strictly prohibit discussion of sexuality and gender from classrooms, effectively limiting - if not outright prohibiting - any kind of education about sexuality and gender.

I am sure there are people that want to do all sorts of things. There are people that don't want me to have a say in my child's education for instance.

I am talking specifically about lawmakers. Not people in general. It's a problem when it's something LAWMAKERS want.

Attitudes and prejudice will always be a part of our society because people generally suck. The issue is keeping them from enacting laws that are discriminatory or unjust. That is what civil debate is about, something the left has lost the ability to do.

I disagree. Right now, I find far more space for debate with and inside the left than I see any debate happening within or with the right.

You don't need to permanently change a child's body to save their life.

Again, this is both a mischaracterisation and a sweeping generalization.

The vast majority of gender-affirming care for minors is fully reversible, and there are many instances where "permanently changing their body" DOES save their life. You think children never had life-saving amputations or organ removal?

There used to be treatments for gender dysphoria and teh like that did not involve altering children's bodies.

There still are, and those are the ones being used.

I never said any of these things are ok.

I never said you did. I said you ignored the point. I pointed to bills and social movements being examples of widespread hatred and prejudice against LGBT people and you responded by asking for "laws restricting their freedom", as if that's the ONLY acceptable standard for discrimination. As my analogy showed, and you seem to agree with, you don't have to have EXPLICIT LAWS that restrict a group's freedom in order for a political body to enact policies or push ideas that directly harm people in that group. Like I said, you KNOW this, which is why you are so keen to change the subject from the clearly and obviously prejudicial attitudes and behaviours of lawmakers to "well, have they done any LAWS against being gay?"

I have never said them. Everyone here is arguing points I never made or believe.

Like when you asked me to provide laws that restricted LGBT freedoms instead of acknowledging the actual thing I was talking about?

Then tell me, what rights do LGBTQ+ people don't have that I have?

You LITERALLY just accused others of "arguing points I never made or believe" and here YOU are asking me to answer for an argument I'm not making.

I'll say write it clearly for you:

A group doesn't just have to have their rights explicitly restricted BY LAW in order to be victims of SOCIAL, ECONOMIC OR POLITICAL OPPRESSION. I have given MULTIPLE EXAMPLES of things that DIRECTLY HARM LGBT people or foster negative attitudes towards them that are, in many ways, being pushed by LAWMAKERS.

These are the things I am talking about. Address them.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What do you object to in the bill? The term don' t say gay is a term made up to bias what people think the bill says.

No, it's literally the consequences of the bill. The bill specifically means that discussion of sexuality and gender cannot be had in the classroom, effectively meaning that discussion or acknowledgement of homosexuality (among other things) is prohibited in schools and children as expressly forbidden from learning about it. Hell, a Republican amendment that was attempted to be added to the bill explicitly wanted to force teachers to "out" LGBT students to their parents (Amendment to Florida’s ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill would require schools to out students)

That's literally the only actual purpose of the bill. It serves no function whatsoever other than to limit childrens education about the existence of LGBT people.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So does that make you a super witch?

I wish. That sounds cool as heck.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I agree with you that if the parents are ok with it then ok. This has not been the case in some instances. This is all I have been saying and it is telling how many people just cannot get themselves to say it is wrong.

I watched the video, which was about as tame as your average football halftime show. So a lot of fuss about nothing anyone cares about until queer people get involved.

Do I think parents should be accurately appraised of what's going on (within reason) so they can make their own judgements on attendance? Yes. Do I think kids shouod be strictly barred, categorically, from being exposed to drag, pride, trans peoppe existing the way many Republicans want, using instances like these to try and paint every outcome the same? Absolutely not.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No. Not all of these drag shows have sexually provocative dance moves. Reminds me of the more socially accepted beauty pageants for little girls. How do you feel about them? Should they be allowed to have stripper poles and twerking? Are you actually concerned for children or using them as an excuse to lash out at transvestites?

Excellent point!

 

[Sand Dancer]

Right-Wingers Furious That Fox News Doesn't Hate Trans People As Much As They Do

Fox News guilty of 'woke trans ideology,' according to right-wing influencers, because its employee handbook contains gender-affirming policies.

www.rollingstone.com

In reality all they were doing is obeying New York state law. (at least on paper).

But I strongly encourage right wingers to boycott Chic Fil a. and Fox News, and Bud lite, and Miller lite, and Disney, and Rebok, and Nike, and Keurig, and M&M's, and Starbucks, and ....

Let's support them staying inside their homes and not being seen or heard from by normal people.

They already stopped giving to anti-LGBT groups years ago. I hope their supporters know this.