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Theists and the Truth

I think that what brings all theists (or nearly) together is that they believe that the Truth will be unveiled someday.
Most of them believe that when we die, we find out every thing that was hidden from us in life.
For example, I believe that when I die, God will tell me all the things I want to know about the greatest mysteries of our time.
Whether JFK was really assassinated by the order of the US Deep State; whether the Deep Church killed John Paul I; whether the financial élites of Brussels maliciously boycott the prosperity of European peoples.
That's what my Catholic priest told me when I was little: don't worry, Jesus will answer all your questions, because in the Afterlife there is no deception or lying.


I wonder whether atheists are saddened by the fact that certain truths will never be revealed. In life, I mean.
What do you atheists think of the Truth? The historical Truth?
Do you strive for it?
I think the Truth, with a capital T, in other words, what's really going on is deeply hidden in life. I count myself as a theist and too celebrate that it will come to light one day. But I hardly fault atheists. Most atheists are on a quest for Truth and Justice in this life, and aren't counting on a Deus Ex Machina so to speak to explain it all to them when they die. There isn't a single theist who can be certain of God's existence. Maybe believing you will get all the answers in the afterlife hampers a diligent search in this life. Just a thought.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think the Truth, with a capital T, in other words, what's really going on is deeply hidden in life. I count myself as a theist and too celebrate that it will come to light one day. But I hardly fault atheists. Most atheists are on a quest for Truth and Justice in this life, and aren't counting on a Deus Ex Machina so to speak to explain it all to them when they die. There isn't a single theist who can be certain of God's existence. Maybe believing you will get all the answers in the afterlife hampers a diligent search in this life. Just a thought.
As a Christian, my God commands me not to violate people's free will.
Since I can't violate people's free will, I cannot know what others hide from me. I can never find out the real Truth, even if I try, and I do.

Evil arises every time people violate people's free will through wars, prevarications, unfair competition.
 
Well we know both the Bible and Science are sources of information. Science says the Earth is a Globe, and this can apparently be proven by some simple tests, some of which I've seen performed, but I'm still not sure. The Bible doesn't really say. But there is a controversy over whether the Earth is really a Globe or flat, and I admit, I still don't know the answer. I've never been to outer space and I'll likely die before I get there. In space, I've seen photos that make the Earth seem like a globe, and some that make it seem flat. Can someone please just run a test we can all agree on and settle the issue? But it remains a mystery. However, I cannot fault the scientist in their quest to search for the answer in this life, but the theist will get his answer from God.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
But there is a controversy over whether the Earth is really a Globe or flat, and I admit, I still don't know the answer. I've never been to outer space and I'll likely die before I get there. In space, I've seen photos that make the Earth seem like a globe, and some that make it seem flat. Can someone please just run a test we can all agree on and settle the issue?
Some few months ago some clever human by the name of Eratosthenes d'Cyrene demonstrated that the Earth is defitely a globe. It has been a settled issue since.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself

This Universe is in constant motion
There is this concept of evolution
If I evolve I become more aware
Yes, I find that to be true.
Objective Truth never changes in Time
Finding this with our dual senses
Seems impossible to me
That's true abut objective truth not changing with time, but what do you mean by dual senses?
I only focus on evolving
Knowing follows automatically
You believe you can't evolve in a direction that is counterproductive?
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
I don't know whether you have ever seen the movie Cast Away...from 2004.
It's the movie of a person who shipwrecks on a desert island, and feels totally sad and lost. Not because of the hostile environment, but because he feels so lonely. He even turns a ball into his friend. And yet he was a person who used to take human relations for granted, when he was home and safe.

I think that that movie shows that the frenetic life of the 21st century prevents us from seeing the others as an end and not as a means. As an instrument to feel less lonely.
Meditation and thought: that's what make us understand the value of the other. And the more we understand the others, the more we understand ourselves. And we would never feel lonely on a desert island.
I watched the movie, but don't remember the beginning well enough if he took human relations for granted then. But I love Tom Hanks movies.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
As an atheist, I accept the fact that my curiosity will never be fully satisfied. My purpose for living is not to single-handedly discover every truth, but to contribute to humanity's collective pursuit of it.

Would I prefer to know everything? Maybe. Sometimes, I'm disappointed that my time on earth is so limited that I could never hope to learn everything we already know, much less what we will continue to discover in the time it takes me to learn what we have already understood. It is rare for a day to go by that I do not feel restrained by the limitations of my brain's computational power and my inability to access certain information.

At the same time, I enjoy learning; I also enjoy walking the path of understanding through study, argument, and experimentation. If I finally knew everything, what room would I have to continue to grow? What would be the point in continuing to live if there was no further progress to be made? Perhaps in educating others and archiving my knowledge. I think I would enjoy that, too.

Either way, I am content with my lot and motivated to continue serving knowledge. To use a common cliche, I think it's more about the journey than the destination. If we could all learn to make peace with the journey, I think we could stop fantasizing about wishful destinations and appreciate what we already have. I think that's the secret to happiness; dispassionate acceptance.
 

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
My questions is: since atheists don't believe in an Afterlife where any Truth will be exposed...
do they strive for it on Earth, at least? :)
Some atheists do believe in such an afterlife. I do not, but I do not see this as impeding my ability to strive for truth.
The pursuit of pleasure is the purpose of life?
This is a common position among atheists. I disagree, but I understand it. We evolved to survive and reproduce and the reward mechanism we developed to motivate us in that process is the pleasure that comes from satisfying our base instincts, such as the desire for sleep, food, water, safety, and sex.

As social creatures, we evolved to cooperate to meet our goals. Since our goals are usually derived from an emotional attachment to the aforementioned sensory pleasures, this means that ancient human cultures developed social mores and enforced rules which were meant to help achieve these pleasures. In that way, we can say that morality is based on pleasure.

This is a description of common morality that we can find in anthropology and social psychology. There is the additional claim that there is no difference between describing what is moral and asserting what one "ought" to do, since morality implies some degree of normativity. That position is known as moral naturalism and that quite neatly leads to hedonist ethics, such as Epicureanism or Hedonic Utilitarianism, when we account for the above factors.

This is not quite the depravity that a religiously-minded person might think, though. A Hedonic Utilitarian would sacrifice their own life to save two other people, for example, and an Epicurean would be inclined towards practicing asceticism. That might seem paradoxical, but these philosophies have well thought-out reasons for this.

In my opinion, I think the entire argument commits the Naturalistic Fallacy. Instead, I agree with Socrates that moral virtue comes from knowledge, and I think the Stoics were on the right track when they developed a system of virtue ethics geared towards living a life in accordance with logic in order to pursue knowledge efficiently.

I honestly see religious ethics as fallacious, too. Even if God exists and has provided us with moral law, asserting that we should follow that moral law would be an Argument from Authority, which is an informal fallacy. In my opinion, there exists no rational apparatus that could derive that one "ought" to follow these laws simply from a description of what the morality within them "is." To me, this is almost identical to the error in logic that moral hedonists make, because both attempt to derive an explicit "ought" from a description of how one particular moral framework "is."

The only reason that truth stands unmarred as an objective normative standard is because we implicitly affirm its value whenever we make an argument. Logic deals with truth, and inherent to logic is a normative goal for achieving truth. Any time we make an argument for any ethical standard, whether it is Utilitarianism or Divine Command Theory, we are using a method (logic) whose aim is to achieve truth. So every ethical position, including moral nihilism, starts with truth as a value.

The only problem is that they tend to assert other values and place them as a higher priority than truth without adequate justification. It is not that truth is necessarily the only moral value, but, as far as I am aware, no adequate argument for a value other than truth has ever been made. I think Hume's Guillotine makes such an argument infeasible to construct.

I am not an atheist because I inherently value atheism or have a moral stake in its truth. I'm only an atheist because I think we have good reason to believe that the universe is not created (and is probably best conceptualized as an eternal 4D "block" of spacetime) and that minds are emergent processes of physical matter, which I arrive at through inductive reasoning. I consider it my moral obligation to admit these facts as they occur to me, because they are the most likely given the information that I have available to me. It would be my obligation to relieve myself of them in the event that they are shown to be likely to be false or less likely to be true than a superior conclusion.

By contrast, my moral sentiments are deductively true, if not outright tautological, and therefore I can say that I am absolutely certain of them. There might be some error in my line of reasoning or a strong/valid argument for some other moral value that I have yet to see, and I am open to that, but I think it would be an uphill battle to substantiate.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
As an atheist, I accept the fact that my curiosity will never be fully satisfied. My purpose for living is not to single-handedly discover every truth, but to contribute to humanity's collective pursuit of it.

Would I prefer to know everything? Maybe. Sometimes, I'm disappointed that my time on earth is so limited that I could never hope to learn everything we already know, much less what we will continue to discover in the time it takes me to learn what we have already understood. It is rare for a day to go by that I do not feel restrained by the limitations of my brain's computational power and my inability to access certain information.

At the same time, I enjoy learning; I also enjoy walking the path of understanding through study, argument, and experimentation. If I finally knew everything, what room would I have to continue to grow? What would be the point in continuing to live if there was no further progress to be made? Perhaps in educating others and archiving my knowledge. I think I would enjoy that, too.

Either way, I am content with my lot and motivated to continue serving knowledge. To use a common cliche, I think it's more about the journey than the destination. If we could all learn to make peace with the journey, I think we could stop fantasizing about wishful destinations and appreciate what we already have. I think that's the secret to happiness; dispassionate acceptance.

These words confirm what I have always thought: many atheists have a spiritual vision of life. And you don't need to believe in a deity's existence in order to have it. If you think knowledge, or rather the pursuit of knowledge is the end of our existence, your existence is very spiritual.


There is a great intellectual in my country called Corrado Augias. He is an atheist, but he has written the most beautiful and innovative books about Jesus' life, since he considers Jesus a very charismatic man.
That's what atheists understand much better than theists, most of the times: that man is the end of our existence. And Jesus was a man, first of all.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think that what brings all theists (or nearly) together is that they believe that the Truth will be unveiled someday.
Most of them believe that when we die, we find out every thing that was hidden from us in life.
For example, I believe that when I die, God will tell me all the things I want to know about the greatest mysteries of our time.
Whether JFK was really assassinated by the order of the US Deep State; whether the Deep Church killed John Paul I; whether the financial élites of Brussels maliciously boycott the prosperity of European peoples.
That's what my Catholic priest told me when I was little: don't worry, Jesus will answer all your questions, because in the Afterlife there is no deception or lying.


I wonder whether atheists are saddened by the fact that certain truths will never be revealed. In life, I mean.
What do you atheists think of the Truth? The historical Truth?
Do you strive for it?
It gives incentive to work and try and find out.
Whereas your side of the fence seems to invite intellectual lazyness instead.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
It gives incentive to work and try and find out.
Whereas your side of the fence seems to invite intellectual lazyness instead.

In my life I have always had thirst for knowledge. I can speak 5 European languages, four of which fluently. And I am learning a sixth, Russian.

Unfortunately there are things which are kept hidden by men. And God will reveal them to me, when I am in the afterlife.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
And I am learning a sixth, Russian.

For when you move there to serve your hero's? :p

Unfortunately there are things which are kept hidden by men. And God will reveal them to me, when I am in the afterlife.
You completely missed the point I was making.

MANY things we understand very well today were regarded in the past as being "unsolvable".

Think about it....
In which scenario will you have any hope of still solving the seemingly unsolvable?

In the scenario where you stubbornly look for answers anyway, believing it is the only way to achieve them?
Or on the scenario where you believe that "one day" someone will simply tell you?

I say that the latter invites intellectual lazyness.

Darwin solved the question of the origins of species because he did NOT settle for the answer of "god made them that way and one day he will tell us how he did that".
To name a silly example.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
For when you move there to serve your hero's? :p
There's a prophecy that says that the Russian Cossacks will be drinking from the fountains of Rome. :)

LOL...I am kidding of course. I learn languages because I like languages.

I say that the latter invites intellectual lazyness.
It's neither intellectual nor material laziness.
I cannot force certain élites to tell me the truth about the ECB Seigniorage.
They won't tell me the truth.
So the only way is to know the truth from God.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It's neither intellectual nor material laziness.

I didn't say that it IS. I said that it INVITES it.

I cannot force certain élites to tell me the truth about the ECB Seigniorage.
They won't tell me the truth.
So the only way is to know the truth from God.
Perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Another way would be to embark on an actual quest to find out. Roll up your sleeves and get to work to climb mount improbable.
Like so many people of the past have done successfully.


Consider the innumerable things we know today that were regarded as "impossible to know" in the past.
Now imagine all those who rolled up their sleeves to solve the seemingly unsolvable, to have instead just said "god will tell us one day".

Intellectual lazyness. Through and through.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Another way would be to embark on an actual quest to find out. Roll up your sleeves and get to work to climb mount improbable.
Like so many people of the past have done successfully.
Consider the innumerable things we know today that were regarded as "impossible to know" in the past.
Now imagine all those who rolled up their sleeves to solve the seemingly unsolvable, to have instead just said "god will tell us one day".
Intellectual lazyness. Through and through.

In the world we live in things are incredibly complex so it takes time to solve problems.
Just think of Brexit. They did it, they succeeded, but it took time because they did anything to stop them.

It takes time. I didn't say I wouldn't find out on this Earth. :)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
In the world we live in things are incredibly complex so it takes time to solve problems.
Just think of Brexit. They did it, they succeeded, but it took time because they did anything to stop them.

It takes time. I didn't say I wouldn't find out on this Earth. :)
It's like you make a sport of missing the point.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If you spoke more clearly, maybe I would understand what you mean.
I am very direct and blunt, so I expect my interlocutor to be as blunt and specific. :)
I don't know how more blunt I need to be, or can be.


I can only repeat myself:

Consider the innumerable things we know today that were regarded as "impossible to know" in the past.
Now imagine all those who rolled up their sleeves to solve the seemingly unsolvable, to have instead just said "god will tell us one day".
Intellectual lazyness. Through and through.



If you assume that things are "impossible" or "too hard" and on top of that that "one day someone will tell us anyway", you remove incentive to get to work and try to find out anyway.

Thus, such a mentality promotes / motivates intellectual lazyness.
It provides an incentive to NOT roll up your sleeves and try to find out.



If you don't want to hear the answer to your question, then don't ask the question.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I don't know how more blunt I need to be, or can be.


I can only repeat myself:

Consider the innumerable things we know today that were regarded as "impossible to know" in the past.
Now imagine all those who rolled up their sleeves to solve the seemingly unsolvable, to have instead just said "god will tell us one day".
Intellectual lazyness. Through and through.



If you assume that things are "impossible" or "too hard" and on top of that that "one day someone will tell us anyway", you remove incentive to get to work and try to find out anyway.

Thus, such a mentality promotes / motivates intellectual lazyness.
It provides an incentive to NOT roll up your sleeves and try to find out.



If you don't want to hear the answer to your question, then don't ask the question.
May I ask you this question?
What is the Truth in your opinion?
 
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