Theists: What would a godless universe look like?

[Polymath257]

No…
Why would there be any order or patterns, without an intelligence causing it?

Um, why would there NOT? The natural laws lead to structure formation naturally.

That was the premise behind SETI, was it not?

No. The point of SETI was to figure out *which* patterns distinguish living things. Most patterns do not.

Based on that premise, it simply doesn’t occur naturally.

And we know otherwise. Gravity, because it is always attractive, leads large masses to pull together into spheres. No intelligence is required.

Same with atoms: Atoms might exist, and attract, but doubtful they’d form any type of functional arrangement, without direction.

And why not? It is, in fact, the inherent ways that atoms attract each other that leads to such functional arrangements.

Even using supercolliders, the creation of human intelligence, functional arrangements of matter eludes them.

? It seems you don't understand what a supercollider does.

Yet with all the functional arrangements & interaction we observe — you want us to believe it happened through mindless natural processes?

Yes, most of the 'functional arrangement' has nothing at all to do with life, let alone intelligence.

I’d have to see it. I think it’s fantasy, in support of a bias similar to that which Aldous Huxley described:

“I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; and consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics. He is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do. For myself, as no doubt for most of my friends, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom. The supporters of this system claimed that it embodied the meaning - the Christian meaning, they insisted - of the world. There was one admirably simple method of confuting these people and justifying ourselves in our erotic revolt: we would deny that the world had any meaning whatever.”


Aldous Huxley,
“Ends and Means”

Meaning is something *we*, as intelligent agents, assign to things. Meaning isn't inherent in the things themselves.

 

[Valjean]

A godless universe would not be integrated. Rather it would be highly dissociated, and would appear random, with the laws of nature in opposition and unrelated, so things remain random.

And how do you come to that conclusion?
Even if the chances of a universe capable of life were a million to one, we're privy only to that One, with an order that generated us. Who can say how many others have been created? Who knows how many are capable of life?
We have a sample size of one. You're drawing some remarkable conclusions from a single exemplar.

It would be more in the image of the ego, which seeks to be a unique occurrence, and less like the inner self, which integrates through collective propensities.

Huh?

 

[DNB]

Well, there's an end on it, then. Everything clear and obvious. Nothing more to discuss.

Glad that you agree.

...how is it possible that a creature created from stardust and protoplasm can comprehend a spiritual entity? This entire forum is predicated on the existence of the transcendent, the spiritual, the intangible, the abstract, etc...
If man was not created in God's image he could not fathom the concept - he would be as all other creatures on the planet: devoid of morality or spiritual awareness.

 

[Valjean]

Glad that you agree.

...how is it possible that a creature created from stardust and protoplasm can comprehend a spiritual entity? This entire forum is predicated on the existence of the transcendent, the spiritual, the intangible, the abstract, etc...

Why would this perplex you? We evolved imaginations. We evolved the ability to abstract, and to conceive the hypothetical. We evolved language, and can tell imaginary stories around the campfire.

Our anatomy and psychology evolved by natural selection and other mechanisms of evolution. No magic required.

If man was not created in God's image he could fathom the concept - he would be as all other creatures on the planet: devoid of morality or spiritual awareness.

Why?

 

[Polymath257]

Glad that you agree.

...how is it possible that a creature created from stardust and can comprehend a spiritual entity? This entire forum is predicated on the existence of the transcendent, the spiritual, the intangible, the abstract, etc...

No, actually. The forum is predicated on the *belief* in such entities, not in their existence.

If man was not created in God's image he could fathom the concept - he would be as all other creatures on the planet: devoid of morality or spiritual awareness.

Humans have the power of abstract ideas. That seems to be unique for life on Earth. This means we can (and do) imagine things that are not there. It means we imagine superlatives even when they don't exist. We can even believe in such things.

As I see it, the concept of God is simply one of those flights of fancy.

 

[wellwisher]

And how do you come to that conclusion?
Even if the chances of a universe capable of life were a million to one, we're privy only to that One, with an order that generated us. Who can say how many others have been created? Who knows how many are capable of life?
We have a sample size of one. You're drawing some remarkable conclusions from a single exemplar.

Huh?

If you look at applied science and engineering, where you need to build things that can hold up under the pressures of physical reality, random does not work. There needs to be order in terms of rational laws, materials and sequences for building. You need to minimize random, such as minor defects in structural steel, that you anticipate, test for, and correct.

If there was no God; planner to engineer the universe, so it all functions properly in rational ways, you would have a random universe. You would not be able to engineer a bridge, in that type of universe, where anything can happen, including the bridge standing on a good day. The random universe bets on the lottery, which is not a reliable source of income. More can, and will go wrong, or fall short.

What is key to engineering a bridge; universe, is being able to see or anticipate the future. This requires consciousness. Consciousness can anticipate the future. This allows you to correct the present; make adjustments, so the final bridge is safe and will last. To do this you need rational equations and relationships for the universe. The human imagination allows us to anticipate and plan for the future, but these plans only work when we have rational laws. The sun is reliable and not subject to periodic disappearing to satisfy the gods of random. We can plug into the gravity equations and know what needs to be done for a future moon mission, with great accuracy. Gravity is solid and reliable and not random. If you lived in a random world, where anything goes, you are stuck in the present, fearing the future; fear of novelty.

If we start with nothing and had no God or consciousness of the future, how does the universe get started? You might be able to wait for a random hocus pocus. But in a rational world, you would look into the future, to where you need the universe to go; place for life. From there you will reverse engineer, so the order in the present is already partially aligned with future needs. Our early universe made a lot of H2O.

But if things are random, looking to the future is not an option, since you need to depend on too many unlikely events, all having to align at the right time. You get stuck at the step one, singularity, with only irregular pulsations. There are too many places to go or not go? You do not want to start only to have to abort and start again since you have a bottleneck. Better to plan before acting.

Being made in God's image is about this human ability to reason and anticipate the future, so we can create and advance reality using the matrix of a rational universe, which offers such a possibility. We are an extension of an early engineering effort.

We; human consciousness, can not only can anticipate the future, due to the rational laws of the universe; math, but we can also look backwards to the past. Evolution goes back to the past and it brings the past to the present. But we cannot change the past, even if we go back; mentally. The dinosaurs were once here, period.

Going to the future, however, does allow one to make changes, since the future can be anticipated and is still unfolding. I can pull the shell off the opening seed, so the little seedling inside, can get out easier, by tomorrow. Or I can leave it to fate, which in our rational universe, is still subject to rational laws we could anticipate. This is why I helped the little plant.

In the final prophesies of Revelations, the old heaven and earth disappear and a new heaven and earth appear. This anticipates a future, where what was learned from this first pilot study universe, is integrated into a final, ready for prime time, Production universe. The imagery shows how God anticipates the future, and this has been copied by humans; ego=Adam, who now can create and expand upon creation, via consciousness; in the image of God.

If you believe in science fiction and advance life and consciousness beyond modern humans, they will be like gods to us, who will anticipate even further to the future of consciousness, when there is a God of gods, who can create a universe from hidden energy; with no bugs. We will come full circle. Belief in God anticipates a future of planning and extrapolating.

 

[Mock Turtle]

If you look at applied science and engineering, where you need to build things that can hold up under the pressures of physical reality, random does not work. There needs to be order in terms of rational laws, materials and sequences for building. You need to minimize random, such as minor defects in structural steel, that you anticipate, test for, and correct.

If there was no God; planner to engineer the universe, so it all functions properly in rational ways, you would have a random universe. You would not be able to engineer a bridge, in that type of universe, where anything can happen, including the bridge standing on a good day. The random universe bets on the lottery, which is not a reliable source of income. More can, and will go wrong, or fall short.

This seems to be a silly use of the word random. What we actually do in engineering is to impose order on whatever materials we use so that the formulae we use to explain the nature of forces involved can be relied upon to work. So it is necessary to remove the naturally occurring faults in materials to such a point as these to not have significant consequences. Even so, we know that there are such issues, and hence why we have fatigue testing of components during pre-production so as to guarantee they will survive for the life we expect of them. No doubt much the same happens in other fields where we need to have consistency as regards data.

And your second paragraph simply agrees with the above - that we are successful because we impose order so as to achieve our successes.

 

[DNB]

Why would this perplex you? We evolved imaginations. We evolved the ability to abstract, and to conceive the hypothetical. We evolved language, and can tell imaginary stories around the campfire.

Our anatomy and psychology evolved by natural selection and other mechanisms of evolution. No magic required.

You're entirely incorrect, as you do not understand the essence of such thoughts. You're merely stating that it happened, but you seem to not know what it is that we actually have.
Example: why did only man evolve in such a manner?

Why?

A fact is a fact, look around you.

 

[DNB]

No, actually. The forum is predicated on the *belief* in such entities, not in their existence.

We believe that they exist - no need for semantics here.

Humans have the power of abstract ideas. That seems to be unique for life on Earth. This means we can (and do) imagine things that are not there. It means we imagine superlatives even when they don't exist. We can even believe in such things.

As I see it, the concept of God is simply one of those flights of fancy.

Why would a creature that is purely materialistic, act in such a manner that is entirely antithetical to his survival?

 

[Valjean]

If you look at applied science and engineering, where you need to build things that can hold up under the pressures of physical reality, random does not work. There needs to be order in terms of rational laws, materials and sequences for building. You need to minimize random, such as minor defects in structural steel, that you anticipate, test for, and correct.

If there was no God; planner to engineer the universe, so it all functions properly in rational ways, you would have a random universe.

Why? We don't know how the existing laws and constants of nature came to be. Perhaps they were random; just a roll of the dice; one random configuration out of who knows how many. All we know is that they are what they are, and they mindlessly dictate the interactions of matter and energy.

Does our universe function properly or rationally? Aren't you trying to impose human concepts on unconscious physics? Couldn't it be just as easily declared a hellish chaos? Might not the same claim of "propriety" and "rationality" be made of any universe whose natural laws chanced to generate sapient creatures?

What is key to engineering a bridge; universe, is being able to see or anticipate the future. This requires consciousness. Consciousness can anticipate the future.

Some creatures consciousness can, to varying degrees, anticipate the future. So what? It's a useful feature explainable by natural selection.

This allows you to correct the present; make adjustments, so the final bridge is safe and will last. To do this you need rational equations and relationships for the universe. The human imagination allows us to anticipate and plan for the future, but these plans only work when we have rational laws.

Yes, animals interact rationally with the world, and act to achieve anticipated goals. It's how they survive. Nothing supernatural here, just natural selection o beneficial behaviors.

Living things, like matter and energy; molecules and galaxies, conform to the laws and constants existing in their reality. The laws aren't rational. They are what they are, and generate whatever order they generate.
Imputing planning or intent to chemistry or physics is irrational. Water poured into a glass does not assume a cylindrical shape by intent or pre-planned design.

The sun is reliable and not subject to periodic disappearing to satisfy the gods of random.

Despite such capriciousness claimed by scripture ....

We can plug into the gravity equations and know what needs to be done for a future moon mission, with great accuracy. Gravity is solid and reliable and not random.

...and not designed. It is what it is: a predictable artifact of the order generated at the "Big Bang." So supernatural, intentional magician required.

You're making up just-so stories to render the universe familiar.

If you lived in a random world, where anything goes, you are stuck in the present, fearing the future; fear of novelty.

But we don't live in a random world. Randomness would generate no world; no order or predictability of any kind. We live in a world ordered by the indifferent laws and constants that chanced to coalesce in the Great Expansion.

 

[Valjean]

You're entirely incorrect, as you do not understand the essence of such thoughts. You're merely stating that it happened, but you seem to not know what it is that we actually have.
Example: why did only man evolve in such a manner?

"...the essence of such thoughts?"
It happened, and we know the mechanisms. There is no need to invent magical manipulators.
"...why did only man evolve in such a manner?" Everything evolved in a unique manner, naturally selected for utility/reproductive success. All species are unique.

A fact is a fact, look around you.

No, your claim is non-sequitur. We are like all other creatures, we're just more irrational than most, driven to invent comforting færie-tales.

 

[Valjean]

We believe that they exist - no need for semantics here.

Why would a creature that is purely materialistic, act in such a manner that is entirely antithetical to his survival?

Materialistic? Are we purely materialistic?
Perhaps it's not "antithetical." Maybe it indirectly promotes reproductive success.

 

[Polymath257]

We believe that they exist - no need for semantics here.

The existence and the belief in existence are different things.

Why would a creature that is purely materialistic, act in such a manner that is entirely antithetical to his survival?

Having abstract concepts allows the development of language, which allows for better coordination on hunting, gathering, etc. Belief in deities is just a strange side effect. Also, making stronger communities can help survival, even if it is based on a myth.

 

[Polymath257]

You're entirely incorrect, as you do not understand the essence of such thoughts. You're merely stating that it happened, but you seem to not know what it is that we actually have.
Example: why did only man evolve in such a manner?

It requires a large brain in rela5tion to body size, specialized anatomy to make use of the mental abilities (opposable thumbs is a big one). Being able to stand upright is another benefit (which limits to only a couple of genuses of great apes--Australopithecus and Homo).

It appears other species of Homo (erectus, heidelbergensis, neandertalensis) also had at least some abstract thought.

A fact is a fact, look around you.

And where is this God you speak of? Look around, none is seen.

 

[Little Dragon]

To say life arose through self-organization, takes a lot of faith.

Stars and planets arise from self organization, as do all the chemical compounds found in nature.

It's a fundamental feature of this universe, a consequence of matter and energy dynamically interacting with each other and the field forces of nature; gravity, electromagnetic, and the two nuclear forces.

This is not faith, this is direct observation.

 

[Little Dragon]

And where is this God you speak of? Look around, none is seen.

Quite, I see no Gods yet I do meet many people who claim Gods exist. None however can tell me how they know this without referring to scripture, which is pointless, you may as well as try to prove to me that Sauron exists by showing me a copy of the Lord of the Rings triology.

Others mention direct contact with the divine, but that could easily be a psychiatric or psychological matter or a vivid imagination, or just a lie. It's not testable evidence.

 

[The Hammer]

Quite, I see no Gods yet I do meet many people who claim Gods exist. None however can tell me how they know this without referring to scripture, which is pointless, you may as well as try to prove to me that Sauron exists by showing me a copy of the Lord of the Rings triology.

Others mention direct contact with the divine, but that could easily be a psychiatric or psychological matter or a vivid imagination, or just a lie. It's not testable evidence.

The best part about belief is evidence isn't really necessary. And when you have experience "belief" seems silly. To convince others of any deity's existence isn't possible. But to this who look they're there to be found, just not easily or overnight.

To me, I look at a tree and see a God, my dog a God, another human a God. Bacteria, fungi, plants, animals, all Gods. My entire life and livelihood depends on these things doing what they do without me, I am wholly dependent on them, thus they are greater than myself.

*Edited

 

[Little Dragon]

The best part about belief is evidence isn't really necessary. And when you have experience "belief" seems silly. To convince others of any deity's existence isn't possible. But to this who look they're there to be found, just not easily or overnight.

I would prefer no personal direct contact with any supernatural entities, benign or otherwise, should such things exist. I would like to study them objectively, under laboratory conditions. If that was possible. Which I suspect it isn't.
I admire the capacity to believe without evidence, it must be fun. Anything could be true.
However it is a thoroughly alien concept to me. One that I can only try to grasp.

 

[Little Dragon]

To me, I look at a tree and see a God, my dog a God, another human a God. Bacteria, fungi, plants, animals, all Gods. My entire life and livelihood depends on these things doing what they do without me, I am wholly dependent on them, thus they are greater than myself.

You see anything with a genome as a God?
Then the word God simply means a living thing, which I suspect is not precisely what you meant.
I have heard people discuss life as a physical manifestation of their God?

 

[The Hammer]

You see anything with a genome as a God?

Sort of. Rocks don't have Genomes. Neither do stars or planets. Or the air, water, land, etc.

Then the word God simply means a living thing, which I suspect is not precisely what you meant.

We are an infinite fractalization of the Universe at large. So All things are divine, but that is an alien concept for most to grasp, including myself at times; so I prefer dealing with the historical deities of our ancestors.

I have heard people discuss life as a physical manifestation of their God?

More like the Universe is animated by light/dark divine energy. What I refer to as magic.