There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus in the New Testament

[YoursTrue]

Well TB says there is no evidence, so I did a search and, naturally, Christians think there's plenty of evidence.

Beyond Matthew’s background and internal clues, early Christian witnesses all attest to the authorship of Matthew. For instance, Papias (AD 60—130), writes that Matthew “put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could” (“Fragments of Papias,” The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Roberts, Donaldson, and Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Christian Literature Company, 1885, p. 155). Other early church fathers such as Pantaenus, Origen, and Irenaeus also corroborate Matthew as the Gospel’s author. It appears likely that the original Gospel of Matthew was written in Hebrew before being translated into Greek.​

​

For me, even if he wrote it, I still don't believe what he says is true. And one of those things goes against the Baha'i beliefs also, the "virgin" birth of Jesus. Matthew or whoever wrote the gospel was probably not an eyewitness to the birth of Jesus. So, where did that story come from? Mary? Joseph? The Magi? Or... some tradition?

My problem with it is that it depends completely on the out of context use of Isaiah 7:14. I have never heard any Christian use other verse from chapter 7. And when I read the chapter in context, the story is about King Ahaz getting a sign about two enemy kings. The sign was that both kings would be dead by the time a boy who reaches a certain age. That was the sign, and it was meant for King Ahaz.

So, for me, the author of Matthew made up the virgin birth story or borrowed it from traditions that were going around.

As far as the virgin birth goes, I doubt Joseph, Mary's husband, spread the word about her being pregnant since he did not want to hurt her when he found out she was pregnant. Mary did visit with her relative Elizabeth, John the Baptist's mother, while she was pregnant. Anna did not consider her to be illegitimately pregnant. Evidently the account was relayed by whoever understood what happened. It was fulfilling prophecy and that is another reason why some of us believe the Bible is inspired of God. Jesus was pretty much despised by the religious leaders throughout his ministry, which wasn't very long anyway.

 

[Eli G]

Do you know what is the Diatessaron and when it was written?

 

[CG Didymus]

are there various sects in your religion?

"No" is not completely correct. There have been people that formed sects, but they are shunned from the Baha'i Faith and haven't amounted to much. Here's a link...

About a dozen efforts have been made to form sects in the history of the Baháʼí Faith.[2] The first major challenge to leadership came after Baháʼu'lláh died in 1892, with ʻAbdu'l-Bahá's half-brother Mírzá Muhammad ʻAlí opposing him. Later, Shoghi Effendi faced opposition from his family, as well as some individual Baháʼís. When Shoghi Effendi passed in 1957, there was no clear successor, and the Hands of the Cause led a transition to the Universal House of Justice, elected in 1963. This transition was opposed by Mason Remey, who claimed to be the successor of Shoghi Effendi in 1960, but was excommunicated by Hands of the Cause because his claim had no basis in authoritative Baháʼí writings.[8] Other, more modern attempts at schism have come from opposition to the Universal House of Justice and attempts to reform or change doctrine.[9]​

 

[Jimmy]

No, they really did not. Do you think that one of them was Peter? The epistles of Peter appear to have not been written by Peter. And if you read them they do not even really say anything about Jesus. Was the other Jimmy? The same applies.

If the original writings of the disciples were unearthed today I guess the dude in the video will be wrong. Haha . I could care less either way but regardless, I think the original writings will be found.

 

[YoursTrue]

I went through the "Jesus" movement of the 70's. Some friends got "Born Again." It was very clear why their Christianity was not only the best way, but the only way.

I'm sure most all of us know how it goes... We are all sinners. We inherited a sin nature from Adam. There's nothing we can do to gain salvation on our own. The "Good News" is... Jesus paid the penalty for our sin. No one else could. And no one else did.

If true, that makes that particular Christian sect superior, because they would be the only way. They would be the only ones who have the correct interpretation of the Bible.

Of course, other Christians don't necessarily agree with them. And Baha'is definitely don't agree with them. Now if it's true that none of the gospels were written by an eyewitness, then what would it matter on which interpretation a Christian had? It would still be based on possibly made up, fictional, embellished stories.

But Baha'is do believe there is one religious group that does have the correct interpretation of the gospels, regardless of whether or not they were written by an eyewitness... and that is the Baha'is.

We cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá’ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá’u’lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.​

Shoghi Effendi, Extracts From The Bahá’í Writings And From Letters Of The Guardian And The Universal House Of Justice On The Old And New Testaments​

But then their prophet, Baha'u'llah, said this...

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances.​

Bahá’u’lláh, from a previously untranslated Tablet, Extracts From The Bahá’í Writings And From Letters Of The Guardian And The Universal House Of Justice On The Old And New Testaments​

So, for Baha'is, should they take this to mean that "those four" did write about the things they heard Jesus say?

There are some who claim to get messages directly from "other-worldly" sources. We can either believe them or not believe them. (Unfortunately some pay for their viewpoints with their lives, as in the form of religious persecution.)
In fact there are some here who claim to have communication with the dead. I do not believe that based on what I have learned from the Bible regarding God's injunction to NOT communicate with the dead. But the point is they are sure they are communicating with unseen spirits. I know what the Bible says about that and I am thankful to know it.
Of course it wouldn't be like a video camera or court stenographer followed Jesus during his life and took constant notes of what he said. Plus if I repeat something that someone said, even if I'm on the right track I might not repeat word for word what the person actually said. But I would still be accurately reporting what was done or said. So the writers had to have written what they knew, even if not first-hand. But some of them were eye-witnesses of many things about Jesus, including some of his actions. Not everybody saw everything he did. That does not negate what is written for our instruction.

 

[YoursTrue]

"No" is not completely correct. There have been people that formed sects, but they are shunned from the Baha'i Faith and haven't amounted to much. Here's a link...

About a dozen efforts have been made to form sects in the history of the Baháʼí Faith.[2] The first major challenge to leadership came after Baháʼu'lláh died in 1892, with ʻAbdu'l-Bahá's half-brother Mírzá Muhammad ʻAlí opposing him. Later, Shoghi Effendi faced opposition from his family, as well as some individual Baháʼís. When Shoghi Effendi passed in 1957, there was no clear successor, and the Hands of the Cause led a transition to the Universal House of Justice, elected in 1963. This transition was opposed by Mason Remey, who claimed to be the successor of Shoghi Effendi in 1960, but was excommunicated by Hands of the Cause because his claim had no basis in authoritative Baháʼí writings.[8] Other, more modern attempts at schism have come from opposition to the Universal House of Justice and attempts to reform or change doctrine.[9]​

I have read there are minor factions within the religion but I did not follow it up extensively. Thank you for your response. I am not very knowledgeable about much of Islam either, but I do know there have been major rifts of belief thus separating people.

 

[YoursTrue]

I went through the "Jesus" movement of the 70's. Some friends got "Born Again." It was very clear why their Christianity was not only the best way, but the only way.

I'm sure most all of us know how it goes... We are all sinners. We inherited a sin nature from Adam. There's nothing we can do to gain salvation on our own. The "Good News" is... Jesus paid the penalty for our sin. No one else could. And no one else did.

If true, that makes that particular Christian sect superior, because they would be the only way. They would be the only ones who have the correct interpretation of the Bible.

Of course, other Christians don't necessarily agree with them. And Baha'is definitely don't agree with them. Now if it's true that none of the gospels were written by an eyewitness, then what would it matter on which interpretation a Christian had? It would still be based on possibly made up, fictional, embellished stories.

But Baha'is do believe there is one religious group that does have the correct interpretation of the gospels, regardless of whether or not they were written by an eyewitness... and that is the Baha'is.

We cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá’ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá’u’lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.​

Shoghi Effendi, Extracts From The Bahá’í Writings And From Letters Of The Guardian And The Universal House Of Justice On The Old And New Testaments​

But then their prophet, Baha'u'llah, said this...

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances.​

Bahá’u’lláh, from a previously untranslated Tablet, Extracts From The Bahá’í Writings And From Letters Of The Guardian And The Universal House Of Justice On The Old And New Testaments​

So, for Baha'is, should they take this to mean that "those four" did write about the things they heard Jesus say?

But now that you mention it, and I read your response again--how was Bahaullah an "eye-witness" account of everything he claimed to know.

 

[blü 2]

The New Testament was written by people who were not eye witnesses to Jesus.

There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus in the New Testament. The four gospels were written and circulated anonymously and the traditional authorship was secondarily assigned towards the end of the second century CE. There is not a single first person claim to being an eye witness to Jesus' life.

Given what I said above, which is explained in the video below, what logical reason would anyone have to believe that the Gospels are an accurate depiction of the life of Jesus? Why should we believe that what these anonymous authors wrote about Jesus is true?

Yes, none of the NT authors ever met a real Jesus.

And Mark, the template for the other gospels, is clearly a construct using selected parts of the Tanakh and (so I read) Greek literary forms. The trial scene is modeled on Josephus' account of the trial of Jesus son of Ananias.

What seems to be consistent in all the versions including Paul, though, is that he was a Jewish male from Galilee, he fought with his family, not least his mother, he preached to the Jewish communities that the Apocalypse was imminent (in the synoptics, within the lifetime of some of his hearers), that the Romans put him to death by crucifixion as a troublemaker, and that he was buried.

The apocalyptic element is removed in John, the last-written gospel, since by then it would have been clear that a second coming wasn't going to happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's said in the video is patently false.

That is an allegation. Can you prove it is false?

 

[blü 2]

The story of Jesus. The greatest story ever told imo.

Why?

I've never understood why Jesus was on a suicide mission at all, let alone why such a thing was necessary when an omnipotent God could bring about any state of earthly affairs that [he] pleased, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers. And if the intention was to spread the message (what message, btw?), the sheer inefficiency of the procedure chosen has meant there are still a great number of people all over the world who've never heard of Jesus 2000 years down the track

 

[Jimmy]

Why?

I've never understood why Jesus was on a suicide mission at all, let alone why such a thing was necessary when an omnipotent God could bring about any state of earthly affairs that [he] pleased, just with one snap of those omnipotent fingers. And if the intention was to spread the message (what message, btw?), the sheer inefficiency of the procedure chosen has meant there are still a great number of people all over the world who've never heard of Jesus 2000 years down the track

Guess you’ll never know. I think that’s even in the Bible where it says some people will just never know.

 

[YoursTrue]

That is an allegation. Can you prove it is false?

Can you prove Bahaullah's words true?

 

[Trailblazer]

What do you believe about Jesus specifically?

That is a big subject. For starters I believe that Jesus was a Messenger of God and a Manifestation of God, but not God incarnate.
I believe that Jesus sacrificed His life for the sins of all of humanity.

I do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead and I do not believe that Jesus is going to return to earth.
I believe that Jesus is in heaven and there He will remain forever.
I do not believe that Jesus is going to set up a kingdom on earth from heaven, as JWs believe.

You are not a Muslim because -- you believe in that which the one you say is a messenger said.

I am not a Muslim because I am a Baha'i, but as a Baha'i I believe in Muhammad and other messengers of God.

You believe all roads lead to God?

I do not believe that all roads lead to God. The only road that leads to God is a road that originated from a true messenger of God.

Do you believe that there are false prophets or messengers?

Yes, of course, and that is why Christ warned us not to follow false prophets.

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you prove Bahaullah's words true?

No, but I am not making a claim that they are true. I only believe they are true.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is very reliable based on history and what happened after his death. Many have been martyred. That does not make them true messengers.

I did not say that makes them messengers. Whether they are messengers or not is for everyone to decide.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If the original writings of the disciples were unearthed today I guess the dude in the video will be wrong. Haha . I could care less either way but regardless, I think the original writings will be found.

They could be. But the fact is that they do not exist right now. If the original writings were dug up it is also possible that they could refute many of the claims that exist today.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, what hope do the Bahai writings offer?

Hope for humanity as a whole, to become united, believe in the one true God, and have peace on earth.
Hope for me personally that the suffering of this life will eventually come to an end and I will find myself in a much better world.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 323-329

 

[Trailblazer]

But then their prophet, Baha'u'llah, said this...

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances.Bahá’u’lláh, from a previously untranslated Tablet, Extracts From The Bahá’í Writings And From Letters Of The Guardian And The Universal House Of Justice On The Old And New Testaments
So, for Baha'is, should they take this to mean that "those four" did write about the things they heard Jesus say?

Those are not officially translated Writings of Baha'u'llah so they are not authoritative.
I do not believe that Baha'u'llah ever wrote that but even if He did I would believe the Bible scholars over Baha'u'llah. Sorry Baha'is.

 

[Jimmy]

They could be. But the fact is that they do not exist right now. If the original writings were dug up it is also possible that they could refute many of the claims that exist today.

Oh I’m certain they will all say that Jesus rose from the dead and performed many miracles.

 

[Trailblazer]

"No" is not completely correct. There have been people that formed sects, but they are shunned from the Baha'i Faith and haven't amounted to much. Here's a link...

About a dozen efforts have been made to form sects in the history of the Baháʼí Faith.[2] The first major challenge to leadership came after Baháʼu'lláh died in 1892, with ʻAbdu'l-Bahá's half-brother Mírzá Muhammad ʻAlí opposing him. Later, Shoghi Effendi faced opposition from his family, as well as some individual Baháʼís. When Shoghi Effendi passed in 1957, there was no clear successor, and the Hands of the Cause led a transition to the Universal House of Justice, elected in 1963. This transition was opposed by Mason Remey, who claimed to be the successor of Shoghi Effendi in 1960, but was excommunicated by Hands of the Cause because his claim had no basis in authoritative Baháʼí writings.[8] Other, more modern attempts at schism have come from opposition to the Universal House of Justice and attempts to reform or change doctrine.[9]​

No, there are no sects within the Baha'i Faith, only attempts by Covenant-breakers to start their own religion.