There are no eyewitness accounts of Jesus in the New Testament

[IndigoChild5559]

I tells us that his material comes from witnesses. It does not matter how many witnesses there were, but Luke did consider them to have been witnesses, or to at least have sourced their material from witnesses (as for example, Mark sourced from Peter)

Hearsay is not the same as an eyewitness account.

 

[blü 2]

Did you investigate any scholarship indicating an earlier John? Perhaps even predating Mark?

Is there no alternative scholarship? Other opinions? Dating the gospels is not easy ...

An assertion of fact. But isn't it really speculation?

Below is the chapter, with the relevant section marked in red:

Spoiler: Book Six Chapter 5:3

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself. While they did not attend, nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretel their future desolation. But like men infatuated, without either eyes to see, or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star, resembling a sword, which stood over the city: and a comet, that continued a whole year. (15) Thus also before the Jews rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crouds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] (16) and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar, and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time. Which light lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskilful: but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also an heifer, as she was led by the High-priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb, in the midst of the temple. Moreover the eastern gate of the inner [court of the] temple,9 which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor; which was there made of one intire stone: was seen to be opened of its own accord, about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it: who then came up thither: and, not without great difficulty, was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy: as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord: and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publickly declared that this signal foreshewed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable; were it not related by those that saw it; and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals. For, before sun setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost; as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple,10 as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said, that in the first place they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise: and after that they heard a sound, as of a multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.” But what is still more terrible; there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian, and an husbandman, who, four years before the war began; and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity; came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (17) began on a sudden to cry aloud, “A voice from the east; a voice from the west; a voice from the four winds; a voice against Jerusalem, and the holy house; a voice against the bridegrooms, and the brides; and a voice against this whole people.” This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his; and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes. Yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him: but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man; brought him to the Roman procurator. Where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare. Yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears: but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem.” And when Albinus, (for he was then our procurator asked him, “Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words?” he made no manner of reply to what he said: but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty: till Albinus took him to be a mad-man, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens; nor was seen by them while he said so. But he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow: “Woe, woe to Jerusalem.” Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food: but this was his reply to all men; and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years, and five months; without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith. Until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege; when it ceased. For as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, “Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house.” And just as he added at the last, “Woe, woe to myself also,” there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately. And as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

Perhaps it's the story Josephus heard, but does his story have to be the right one?

In the same chapter Josephus also reported this: "For, before sun setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." And this: "At the same festival also an heifer, as she was led by the High-priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb, in the midst of the temple." And other strange occurrences and signs ...

Is there a conclusive reason to support Josephus against Mark?

I'm already familiar with the relevant parts of Josephus.

Try this >Richard Carrier on gMark parallel with Jesus ben Ananias - Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com<.

 

[shunyadragon]

Hence why Christianity is the best of all "faith-based" religions.

It may also be the reason it is the most divided and conflicted of all religions anchored in ancient mythology without provenance of its scriptures, except for the possibility of Islam

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you think that one does not own a position that one agrees with? That is so weird.

Why do you think that one would own a position just because one agrees with it? That is so weird.
I do not own that position because I did not do the research in order to form the position, just like I do not own a house if I do not pay the mortgage.

 

[shunyadragon]

I tells us that his material comes from witnesses. It does not matter how many witnesses there were, but Luke did consider them to have been witnesses, or to at least have sourced their material from witnesses (as for example, Mark sourced from Peter)

Nothing was sourced to the life of Jesus. No we do not know there were witnesses, The Pentateuch is even far less reliable with nothing recorded or witnesses even close to the times claimed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is not claimed that Mark was an eyewitness, however Luke says at the beginning of his gospel.
Luke 1:1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
Since it looks as if Luke copied from Mark, it looks as if Luke sees Mark's gospel as having come from a witness, as the tradition about Mark and Peter suggests also.

The author of Luke clearly trusted the stories he was told, and didn't bother to verify, or to sort out those that were likely fabrications.

Right now, a LOT of people believe that Haitians are eating pets. But it's a fabrication that grew with every telling. Vance claimed a certain police report was evidence, where a woman reported her cat missing. But it turned out the cat was only hiding inside the home. In another aspect of the myth, a woman apologized for her post on facebook that a neighbor’s cat that went missing, adding that the neighbor told her she thought the cat was the victim of an attack by her Haitian neighbors. This neighbor later admitted she had also heard it from a third party. It's a game of telephone.

Let me ask you a question. After the sufi mystic Al Hallaj was executed by the religious leaders, many of his disciples reported seeing him alive and walking around. Which do you think is more likely?
A. Some of his followers experienced grief hallucinations, which began rumors later embellished.
B. God rose Al Hallaj from the dead.

 

[ppp]

I do not own that position because I did not do the research in order to form the position,

Ah. I am incapable of agreeing with a position where I have not done the research, implicitly or explicitly, to reach the conclusion that the position is true, or likely true.

 

[shunyadragon]

Historically there is sufficient evidence that Jesus (Joshua) existed, and was convicted for treason against Rome and crucified, Beyong this the gospels represent created history of no provenance documenting his life. This is true of many Messianic figures of ancient religions like Buddha. The historical provenance of the Pentateuch and historical figures are less reliable.

 

[GoodAttention]

It may also be the reason it is the most divided and conflicted of all religions anchored in ancient mythology without provenance of its scriptures, except for the possibility of Islam

Conflicted in what way? When I think of Christianity divided I only think "united we stand, divided we fall".

This is the exact opposite to Islam, but having said that I don't know how much conflict there really is, since apparently Sunni vs Shia is also united when it comes to Islam vs Israel.

My point is, Christian or Islam, divided isn't necessarily a negative if one ignores provenance and/or "authenticity".

 

[shunyadragon]

Conflicted in what way? When I think of Christianity divided I only think "united we stand, divided we fall".

This is the exact opposite to Islam, but having said that I don't know how much conflict there really is, since apparently Sunni vs Shia is also united when it comes to Islam vs Israel.

My point is, Christian or Islam, divided isn't necessarily a negative if one ignores provenance and/or "authenticity".

I believe the tribalism, bloody conflicts, and clinging to the mythology of ancient texts definitely bring to question to questions of provenance and "authenticity."

Judaism, Christianity have been involved in tribal wars for thousands of years, regardless of being against Judaism in a tribal turf war, The Shia and Sunni have been in a tribal war for millennia. Islam is further divided along tribal boundaries.

As far as Christianity it has been long divided and at war with itself and riff with anti-Semitism and anti-Jewish conflicts and at tribal war with Islam. The tribal wars go back to entire history of Judaism. Christianity has been extensively involved in tribal extermination in it expansion and colonial domination of the world, Anti-Semitism is still alive and sick in America.

Being a non-Christian in the USA with rise of Fundamentalism and "Christian Nationalism" there is fear of an uncertain future.

Yes divided and conflicted and involved in tribal wars for millennia.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah. I am incapable of agreeing with a position where I have not done the research, implicitly or explicitly, to reach the conclusion that the position is true, or likely true.

I guess we are different in that way. There is no way that I am going to spend a lot of time researching the origins of the Bible, especially because it is not my holy book. I go with what makes sense to me but I am open to other opinions if people have evidence to back them up. Moreover, those who claim that there was eyewitness testimony of Jesus have the burden of proof, and I do not think that they have met that burden.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The author of Luke clearly trusted the stories he was told, and didn't bother to verify, or to sort out those that were likely fabrications.

You seem to know him better than most. See post #555.

 

[Trailblazer]

Historically there is sufficient evidence that Jesus (Joshua) existed, and was convicted for treason against Rome and crucified, Beyong this the gospels represent created history of no provenance documenting his life.

If this is the case, what are Baha'is supposed to believe about Jesus, only what the central figures of the Baha'i Faith wrote about Him?

Can you how this would create confusion for Baha'is, given what Baha'u'llah wrote about the gospels, calling them His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures?

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, 90 the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

 

[ppp]

I guess we are different in that way. There is no way that I am going to spend a lot of time researching the origins of the Bible, especially because it is not my holy book. I go with what makes sense to me but I am open to other opinions if people have evidence to back them up. Moreover, those who claim that there was eyewitness testimony of Jesus have the burden of proof, and I do not think that they have met that burden.

Bible, schmible. It not about the subject of the research. It could be anything. Bible. Gingerbread. Medicine. If I don't know enough to assess the claim, then I don't agree to the claim. If I agree to the claim, then any actions I take, or words I say/write that I write based upon that agreement are my responsibility. For me to point the fingers at someone else as a way to avoid culpability would be moral cowardice on my part.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bible, schmible. It not about the subject of the research. It could be anything. Bible. Gingerbread. Medicine. If I don't know enough to assess the claim, then I don't agree to the claim. If I agree to the claim, then any actions I take, or words I say/write that I write based upon that agreement are my responsibility. For me to point the fingers at someone else as a way to avoid culpability would be moral cowardice on my part.

As I said before, I guess you and I are just different.

 

[shunyadragon]

If this is the case, what are Baha'is supposed to believe about Jesus, only what the central figures of the Baha'i Faith wrote about Him?

Can you how this would create confusion for Baha'is, given what Baha'u'llah wrote about the gospels, calling them His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures?

I did not consider this thread a question of religious belief, but questions answered by evidence of academic history. Like all religions the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith are based to an extent on faith, and not the demands of literal truth of ancient texts. The Baha'i Faith for example does not consider the Pentateuch literal history. For example the Baha'i Faith does not consider our physical existence a geocentric world Created in 6 days.

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, 90 the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

Fulfillment does not necessarilly literally true. The texts of ancient religions remain from the perspective of the times they were written,

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You seem to know him better than most. See post #555.

That was one outstanding post!

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think what you don't understand is that I "understand" the basics you speak of. Whether I agree with them is another story. Be that as it may, have a good one as the current saying goes.

No, the fact is that you do not. You keep demonstrating that. And that is actually a good thing. If you did understand then many of your posts here would have been lies. I do not think that you are a liar. You are just terribly ignorant.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, the fact is that you do not. You keep demonstrating that. And that is actually a good thing. If you did understand then many of your posts here would have been lies. I do not think that you are a liar. You are just terribly ignorant.

You're wrong. But please do ask those who claim to be theists why they are theists. Thank you.

 

[YoursTrue]

That was one outstanding post!

Except it was just about like some theories. Nothing of substance. Take care.