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There Can be no "Intelligent Design"

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Nothing is wrong with that, if we could know it were true, but we don't know. If it's not true, and there is a purpose, 'it just is' would be missing the entire point of our being here.

My money is on 'why' being the answer to everything, without purpose nothing would exist, that purpose is the only way to truly create anything.

And I think there is a hypothetical solution to all apparent paradoxes if we do not rule this out..

What if a chicken were to lay an egg, which was utterly identical to the one it came from, and at the exact same time and place- is it a copy? or the original? Or can it be both at the same time?

Not sure I understand -but it seems logical to me that "it just is" is what purpose is made from -and so preceded purpose even though it would inevitably become purpose. In order to create, there must be something that "just is" which can be given purpose -and one able to give purpose must be composed of something.

Also, a grand purpose would be built upon -and preceded by -more simple purposes. At the point of self-awareness, for example, the first purposes would include survival, security,etc., the next purposes would include comfort, self-improvement, creativity/joy/fun... And eventually socialization, etc. -which, for the original self-awareness, would mean first creating other self-aware beings.
All of that, however, would be based on the most basic interactions possible.

God purposed to create us -but it is still a perfectly logical -perhaps inevitable -step. God could have continued on alone -but that's not very logical, because creating others is a perfectly good idea. The first thing you do after creating something awesome is to want another to see how awesome it is. Then you want others to create stuff you can find awesome.

As for the purpose for existence..... I can see only one -and that is that existence is awesome. The point of being here is being here -experiencing and doing awesome stuff -more importantly.... sharing awesomeness with others -and being awesome to each other. The present situation makes it seem that existence is not so awesome at times, but that's only because we are newbs who have not yet mastered awesomeness.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Not sure I understand -but it seems logical to me that "it just is" is what purpose is made from -and so preceded purpose even though it would inevitably become purpose. In order to create, there must be something that "just is" which can be given purpose -and one able to give purpose must be composed of something.

Also, a grand purpose would be built upon -and preceded by -more simple purposes. At the point of self-awareness, for example, the first purposes would include survival, security,etc., the next purposes would include comfort, self-improvement, creativity/joy/fun... And eventually socialization, etc. -which, for the original self-awareness, would mean first creating other self-aware beings.
All of that, however, would be based on the most basic interactions possible.

I don't think we are too far apart on this.

But if I understand you correctly, you are saying there must be a progression from a simpler state- even for God, which I understand logically. But the problem is entropy- without a driver, things don't just spontaneously design themselves for no particular reason. As before we can point to computer programs that in a sense 'create' complexity- but only by first starting with something even more complex than the result- the hardware, software, intelligent programmer. The software cannot write itself- that needs purpose to yes?

Similarly with life, the most complex 'software' needed to drive it, had to exist from the very beginning.

I think the hypothetical solution lies in the fact that God, as creator of time as we know it, must necessarily transcend that time, cause and effect as we understand- to have always been sentient. to be the 'The beginning and end'


God purposed to create us -but it is still a perfectly logical -perhaps inevitable -step. God could have continued on alone -but that's not very logical, because creating others is a perfectly good idea. The first thing you do after creating something awesome is to want another to see how awesome it is. Then you want others to create stuff you can find awesome.

I think that's a very good point, creative intelligence is an awesome- and as far as we can tell- unstoppable force, nothing is inherently beyond it's capability- perhaps even creating our own universe?, and creating our own collective intelligence, understanding, love, purpose and pouring it into that universe?- which would then be created independently from our time scale, and leave it's inhabitants scratching their heads as yto where they came from- if you see where I am going with this?!

As for the purpose for existence..... I can see only one -and that is that existence is awesome. The point of being here is being here -experiencing and doing awesome stuff -more importantly.... sharing awesomeness with others -and being awesome to each other. The present situation makes it seem that existence is not so awesome at times, but that's only because we are newbs who have not yet mastered awesomeness.

I agree there also- love being the most awesome thing, purpose, motive for anything- and love, good cannot exist without hate/bad- no more than left can exist without right, they define each other.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I believe that it is better to fill in the hole with something that leaves no gaps, rather than fill it with something so full of holes that it wouldn't keep out a freight train.

Can you answer this one with proof from evolution?.....beginning at the most basic level of life....

The basic unit of living things is the cell, and the basic material that makes up a cell is protein. Evolutionists acknowledge that the probability of the right atoms and molecules falling into place to form just one simple protein molecule is about 1 in 10113, or 1 followed by 113 zeros. In other words, it could take 10113 chances for the event to occur once. But any event that has one chance in 1050 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening.

4 However, far more than one simple protein molecule is needed for life to occur. For a cell to maintain its functions, some 2,000 different proteins are needed. What, then, is the probability of all of these happening at random? It is estimated that it is 1 in 1040,000, or 1 followed by 40,000 zeros! Are you willing to rest your faith on such an outrageously remote probability?

How do you explain this?
I've posted a response to these bogus probability calculations before, so I think it will serve to copy and paste that here:

Have you ever bounced a rubber ball on the ground? The surface area of the earth is approximately 12,478,143,744,000 square inches. So, it is trivial to deduce that the odds of a rubber ball landing in one particular square inch of the earth's surface is 1 in 12,478,143,744,000. Therefore, the odds of bouncing a rubber ball and it landing in any particular square inch of the earth's surface make the act one of nigh-incomprehensible improbability. For some perspective, the odds of winning the European lottery is 1 in 116,531,800, so every time you bounce a ball and it lands in a particular square inch of the earth's surface, you are witnessing an event that is more than 1,000 times more improbable than winning the European lottery.

So, why is it that this incredibly statistically unlikely even can occur?

Simple: it isn't pure chance that determines where the ball falls. It is physical forces such as gravity acting on that ball, as well as the initial positioning of the ball when it is dropped.

Point is, it's trivial to render almost any single event as being statistically improbable if the only thing your calculation takes account of is things occurring randomly. But we live in a Universe where things exist in certain states which make them susceptible to physical laws, and these laws alter the interactions of things in ways that these simple probability-based calculations simply fail to take account of. Nothing exists in a total vacuum such that the only factor that can influence its outcome is "random chance".

This is part of a field of physics known as statistical mechanics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_mechanics). It's something I barely understand myself, but I'm sure some people more well-versed in physics will be happy to explain it in more detail if needs be. The thing to take away from this is that so-called "probability calculations" for phenomenon like the Universe or the Earth forming are completely meaningless, since you can apply the exact same logic to almost any formation of matter and deduce that anything is statistically improbable if the only factor your equation takes account of is pure, blind chance. It's a simple, false dichotomy.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I don't think we are too far apart on this.

But if I understand you correctly, you are saying there must be a progression from a simpler state- even for God, which I understand logically. But the problem is entropy- without a driver, things don't just spontaneously design themselves for no particular reason. As before we can point to computer programs that in a sense 'create' complexity- but only by first starting with something even more complex than the result- the hardware, software, intelligent programmer. The software cannot write itself- that needs purpose to yes?

Similarly with life, the most complex 'software' needed to drive it, had to exist from the very beginning.

I think the hypothetical solution lies in the fact that God, as creator of time as we know it, must necessarily transcend that time, cause and effect as we understand- to have always been sentient. to be the 'The beginning and end'




I think that's a very good point, creative intelligence is an awesome- and as far as we can tell- unstoppable force, nothing is inherently beyond it's capability- perhaps even creating our own universe?, and creating our own collective intelligence, understanding, love, purpose and pouring it into that universe?- which would then be created independently from our time scale, and leave it's inhabitants scratching their heads as yto where they came from- if you see where I am going with this?!



I agree there also- love being the most awesome thing, purpose, motive for anything- and love, good cannot exist without hate/bad- no more than left can exist without right, they define each other.

Biblically speaking, God is said to have progressed from a more simple state -but the most simple state is not described.

I don't know -but I do not presently think that God (everything) was necessarily always sentient in a very complex state -but was always the one who was in the most simple state and would become sentient in a complex state.

That would still qualify as being eternal -having "always" existed -but outside the frame of any time. To be outside the frame of any time, one must have been that which defined and produced time by making the first move.
I do not believe time to be a thing in and of itself -but a description and product of relationships and interaction.
I do not believe anything necessarily preceded the first move except that which would first move -and "before" the first move need only exist as a concept which is false -as it defined and produced time.

With all things, the most simple software and hardware needed to exist from the very beginning. It can exist without the more complex -but the more complex cannot exist without it.

The most simple state could not have been similar to a bunch of ones and zeroes which could not interact and become rearranged -but could possibly be as simple as something akin to ones and zeroes with something to stir them up.
Technically, software cannot exist without hardware -without residing somewhere -and the most basic combination of software and hardware might be of a nature to write anything and everything -yet preferring a complexity indicative of the nature of the most basic simplicity.
I do believe software could possibly write itself until it became a simple self -and then make itself a more complex self -knowing itself more as it became more of itself to know.
(Knowing, etc., would require some sort of memory reference, I suppose, equal to or greater than that which could be known at any time. Memory could then be manipulated to model, etc..)

The chance that such could become a sentience might seem slim to none -but perhaps chance is not an issue when time is not an issue... if it was of a nature to eventually arrange into every possible increasingly-complex combination until it looked in a mirror, as it were.
If there is any chance at all -perhaps an eternity for such things to happen makes at least some chances inevitable.

Or something like that. "Everything" does seem rather "binary" in nature -with something able to compound it.

I do not believe good cannot exist in reality without evil -but it cannot exist without the concept of evil. Pure good can only exist when evil is prevented from existing -by understanding the concept and the particulars.

That is the difference between God knowing good and evil -and man knowing good and evil. God made man in his image -but when man became as God -knowing good and evil -mayhem ensued -because man has not yet learned to keep evil from existing in reality.
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
What's the opposite of intelligent design? Evolution.

It's origins are random, disorganized and not based on any intelligence amiright?
They're not necessarily opposites and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. There could be an intelligent designer behind evolution. There could be no intelligent designer behind evolution.

(Evolution is guided by natural selection, which is not random or disorganized.)
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
They're not necessarily opposites and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. There could be an intelligent designer behind evolution. There could be no intelligent designer behind evolution.

(Evolution is guided by natural selection, which is not random or disorganized.)
Yup. It could be a combination. An intelligent designer designed the evolutionary algorithm and kicked it off to produce life naturally, in other words, evolution being exactly true for us in its natural state and function, yet some smart being behind it that programmed the computer, so to speak.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Yup. It could be a combination. An intelligent designer designed the evolutionary algorithm and kicked it off to produce life naturally, in other words, evolution being exactly true for us in its natural state and function, yet some smart being behind it that programmed the computer, so to speak.
To me, that would be a truly intelligent designer - something that created the amazing process of evolution.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
To me, that would be a truly intelligent designer - something that created the amazing process of evolution.
And that's the direction where game designers are going. Try to create a million planets for a multiplayer game with unique lifeforms and such. Instead of spending billions of dollars and thousands of designers, just create programs that generate landscapes, buildings, and creatures. It's working smart instead of hard.

Design has gone from handcrafted vases to machine processes in the last hundred years, but many creationists still think that God must've created the world like a carpenter and watchmaker instead of seeing that we're surpassing that method in our world. We create things through automated processes, more and more.

My son just told me that other day that he finished his AI for playing Threes. It's an assignment he has. He's studying artificial intelligence at a university, and the AI program learns from ground up how to play the game, and gets over 200,000 points on a steady basis. It's incredible hard to do. I've gotten 48,000 as my best, and it took a lot of practice and time.

So why can't God do things like that? He/she/it isn't intelligent enough?

Besides, looking at nature and how advanced it is, if that is a sign of an intelligent designer, then why can't we expect this designer be able to create such a brilliant solution as evolution?

It's just mind numbing to refuse God to have that ability (if one believes in God).
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
And that's the direction where game designers are going. Try to create a million planets for a multiplayer game with unique lifeforms and such. Instead of spending billions of dollars and thousands of designers, just create programs that generate landscapes, buildings, and creatures. It's working smart instead of hard.

Design has gone from handcrafted vases to machine processes in the last hundred years, but many creationists still think that God must've created the world like a carpenter and watchmaker instead of seeing that we're surpassing that method in our world. We create things through automated processes, more and more.

My son just told me that other day that he finished his AI for playing Threes. It's an assignment he has. He's studying artificial intelligence at a university, and the AI program learns from ground up how to play the game, and gets over 200,000 points on a steady basis. It's incredible hard to do. I've gotten 48,000 as my best, and it took a lot of practice and time.

So why can't God do things like that? He/she/it isn't intelligent enough?

Besides, looking at nature and how advanced it is, if that is a sign of an intelligent designer, then why can't we expect this designer be able to create such a brilliant solution as evolution?

It's just mind numbing to refuse God to have that ability (if one believes in God).
I totally agree.

And I think you just blew my mind because I've never thought of game designing in that way before. Even though it makes perfect sense the way you describe it.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I totally agree.

And I think you just blew my mind because I've never thought of game designing in that way before. Even though it makes perfect sense the way you describe it.
There are some world generators out there already, but I haven't seen any that can make creatures yet. It wouldn't surprise me, however, if there is.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Allows for awesome variety, too. I'd imagine it would be great for God to experience something which was new to himself. ;)
Exactly!!! Totally with you. What's the entertainment in creating something exactly how you thought of it? That's no fun. It's the surprises that are fun.

When I draw or paint, it's the unintended things that attracts me the most. Not the things that turn out like a dull copy of some simple idea. It's when the art takes on a life of its own and creates something for me. Same thing when I used to play music. It was the accidental slipups that sounded great that were the coolest.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
What's the opposite of intelligent design? Evolution.

It's origins are random, disorganized and not based on any intelligence amiright?

It might be said that evolution is an intelligent designer -but one that is not self-aware.

"Intelligence has been defined in many different ways including one's capacity for logic, abstract thought, understanding, self-awareness, communication, learning, emotional knowledge, memory, planning, creativity and problem solving. It can be more generally described as the ability to perceive information, and retain it as knowledge to be applied towards adaptive behaviors within an environment."

(from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence)

We may think that thinking requires a brain -but, technically, it requires something that does something similar to a brain -not necessarily a brain, as such.

Another way to look at it is to consider what makes or makes up a brain.
Not only is our ability to think dependent on DNA -but DNA put all the stuff where it would need to be to allow us to think.
"Evolution" -or whatever else might have been involved -must have been intelligent enough to cause a brain to exist.
Even all of our collective brainpower struggles to understand and reverse-engineer itself, evolution, etc...

Are we to believe that our brains are more intelligent than that which caused them to exist -even though we are not yet capable of causing a brain to exist?
 
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McBell

Unbound
I believe that it is better to fill in the hole with something that leaves no gaps, rather than fill it with something so full of holes that it wouldn't keep out a freight train.

Can you answer this one with proof from evolution?.....beginning at the most basic level of life....

The basic unit of living things is the cell, and the basic material that makes up a cell is protein. Evolutionists acknowledge that the probability of the right atoms and molecules falling into place to form just one simple protein molecule is about 1 in 10113, or 1 followed by 113 zeros. In other words, it could take 10113 chances for the event to occur once. But any event that has one chance in 1050 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening.

4 However, far more than one simple protein molecule is needed for life to occur. For a cell to maintain its functions, some 2,000 different proteins are needed. What, then, is the probability of all of these happening at random? It is estimated that it is 1 in 1040,000, or 1 followed by 40,000 zeros! Are you willing to rest your faith on such an outrageously remote probability?

How do you explain this?
Lovely.
Math claims.
Please show your work.
Including where you got your numbers and why they are the correct numbers for where you used them.

Please, please, be the very first person in all of history to present your math.
 

McBell

Unbound
Overcoming these sort of odds, which are ever increasing the more we learn, has pretty much dwindled down to multiverses- an infinite probability machine, creating every possible thing imaginable, including this universe (but not God)- or some unknown alien intelligence, as long as it's not God. OR we have no idea, but we are certain it's not God
Except that these "odds" are nothing but a bold empty claim.

Perhaps YOU will be the first person in all of history to show the math?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
oh goody.
Does this mean you have no problems showing your math?
I mean you gonna jump straight to ad hominem and all...

The math is obviously not something that most evolutionists can speak about without derision. Astronomical figures are beyond our ability to grasp anyway, but suffice it to say, the odds are huge, despite quibbling about actual numbers.

I found a quote from Robert Naeye, a noted astronomer, evolutionist and one of the chief editors of the Magazine Sky and Telescope and Skywatch.
He wrote: “Because evolution is primarily a game of chance, any seemingly minor past event could have gone slightly different, cutting off our evolutionary line before humans evolved.” But we are supposed to believe that every gamble paid off, millions of times. Naeye admits: “The long series of bottlenecks makes it clear that the emergence of intelligent life is far more difficult than scientists once thought. There are probably more obstacles that scientists haven’t even stumbled across yet.”

He also said that life on earth is the result of “a long sequence of improbable events [that] transpired in just the right way to bring forth our existence, as if we had won a million-dollar lottery a million times in a row.”

(Naeye R., "OK, Where Are They?," Astronomy, July 1996, Vol. 24, No. 7, pp.36-43, p.38)

Make of that what you will....but how many times have you won the lottery?

How many people win the lottery more than once?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
There's a woman who's won lottery four times.

About 1500 people win lottery over 1 million each year. (3-4 per day)

The funny thing with lottery is that you have a very small chance to win, but the chance that someone wins is fairly high.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
They're not necessarily opposites and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. There could be an intelligent designer behind evolution. There could be no intelligent designer behind evolution.

(Evolution is guided by natural selection, which is not random or disorganized.)

So, what are the origins of evo by natural selection?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
The math is obviously not something that most evolutionists can speak about without derision. Astronomical figures are beyond our ability to grasp anyway, but suffice it to say, the odds are huge, despite quibbling about actual numbers.

I found a quote from Robert Naeye, a noted astronomer, evolutionist and one of the chief editors of the Magazine Sky and Telescope and Skywatch.
He wrote: “Because evolution is primarily a game of chance, any seemingly minor past event could have gone slightly different, cutting off our evolutionary line before humans evolved.” But we are supposed to believe that every gamble paid off, millions of times. Naeye admits: “The long series of bottlenecks makes it clear that the emergence of intelligent life is far more difficult than scientists once thought. There are probably more obstacles that scientists haven’t even stumbled across yet.”


Quote-mined.

"Our own lineage went through through millions of species. Because evolution is primarily a game of chance, any seemingly minor past event could have gone slightly different, cutting off our evolutionary line before humans evolved. ET proponents should be deeply discouraged that none of the millions of other lineages, representing the billions of species that have inhabited Earth during its existence, have made substantial progess toward high intelligence."

He was talking at ET believers not evolution.

"The long series of bottlenecks makes it clear that the emergence of intelligent life is far more difficult than scientist once thought. There are probably more obstacles that scientist haven't even stumbled across yet. The origin of life on Earth, for example, might have been the ultimate long shot. ET proponents might counter that this line of reasoning is based on mere anthropocentric speculation. Maybe life and even intelligent life can take on various forms that we can't even imagine."

At ET believers not evolution

He also said that life on earth is the result of “a long sequence of improbable events [that] transpired in just the right way to bring forth our existence, as if we had won a million-dollar lottery a million times in a row.”


No, that was a response to this

"On the surface, the most obvious evidence bearing on these questions is the fact that our home world and host star seem so ordinary. Nicolas Copernicus shattered the prevailing notion that Earth was seated at the center of creation. Succeeding generations of astronomers steadily reinforced the Copernican view as they discovered the true nature of stars, the remote location of our home world within our Galaxy, and the existence of galaxies far, far beyond our own. So pervasive is this view that in the world of modern science, it is almost considered heresy to assert any special qualities to our solar system, our planet, or even ourselves. With an estimated 200 billion stars in the Galaxy and interstellar space filled with the molecules necessary for life, many scientists and laymen naturally conclude that we could not be alone -we must share our Galaxy with hundreds, thousands, or perhaps millions of other civilizations.

But on closer examination, this simple logic falls apart. Recent studies in a variety of scientific fields suggest that life must pass through a series of bottlenecks on the road to intelligence. On Earth, a long sequence of improbable events transpired in just the right way to bring forth our existence, as if we had won a million-dollar lottery a million times in a row. Contrary to the prevailing belief, maybe we are special. Maybe humanity stands alone on a fertile island in the largely sterile waters of the galactic ocean.

Read what your reference rather than trusting in quote-mining apologist websites rely upon. Your source criticized ET believers not evolution...

http://www.xtec.cat/~aparra1/astronom/mars/vidae.htm


 
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