There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

[metis]

I briefly started skimming through the Bhagavad-Gita once, but it bored me so I binned it.
Incidentally Gandhi called it his "spiritual dictionary", but it didn't seem to have done him a bit of good because he let India's wretched Hindu caste system go on without tackling it-

You're wrong as he did teach against untouchability, nor was he any fan of the caste system, nor is either intrinsic to Hinduism, btw.

I think I prefer the Christian approach..-
"[God] raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory:" (1 Samuel 2:8 KJV)

Ah, but simply because you "prefer" Christianity, that doesn't mean that its teachings must be accurate. This is why I asked you about the Gita, which frankly I find much more interestingly written that the Bible since it's written in novel form. You accept the Christian version of the Bible as being accurate, but that's only an opinion that frankly cannot be substantiated. You can no more prove yourself right than I can prove you wrong, nor can a Hindu prove the Gita is right any more than you can prove it wrong.

Therefore, when you say "God sent Jesus...", this cannot be substantiated in any way, and it's very important not to confuse belief with historical fact as they may not at all be the same.

BTW, the caste system is very much along the way of being eliminated, and Gandhi is one reason for this.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

[Gandhi] did teach against untouchability, nor was he any fan of the caste system, nor is either intrinsic to Hinduism, btw...

Nevertheless, the caste system is still going strong in India so Gandhi's influence in trying to get it stopped must have been zero, or else he never really tried!
Again, let's contrast it with Christianity's approach to the weak members of society; here Jesus has another run-in with the snooty priests who wonder why he talks to ordinary common people, so he shouts at them "ON YER BIKES!"

 

[metis]

Nevertheless, the caste system is still going strong in India so Gandhi's influence in trying to get it stopped must have been zero, or else he never really tried!

Um, I said the caste system is waning, not "going strong". And, using your "logic", Jesus must have been a total failure because he taught peace and we ain't got it.

BTW, the Temple priests did also talk to "ordinary people", plus they didn't claim that they were God. But then I don't think Jesus actually declared himself to be God either.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have asked you to "Prove that animals are capable of acting in a non-determined manner." And you have not done it. You have given me a page of resources that you expect me to read so as to perhaps find this evidence myself. You apparently claim to have seen sufficient evidence somewhere perhaps in these pages of books to suggest that animals are capable of acting in a non-determined manner, yet you expect me to read dozens of books to find this evidence that you claim to have seen. Honestly it's too many books to read. I have read the pages of resources just as I have said. Since you have already seen the convincing evidence from some unknown page of this vast list of resources, I am asking you for that golden nugget, that one page that convinced you that animals are capable of acting in a non-determined manner. Is that too much to ask? You say evidence exists. Just submit the evidence, and spare me the laborious task of finding it for myself.

What do you mean by "non-determined manner?"

 

[SkepticThinker]

It's interesting to look into how the ancient cultures viewed snakes and what they symbolized. My understanding is that the snake represented wisdom and healing. The snake in the garden knew secrets and revealed them to the humans. But the gods didn't want humans to know the secrets (like the tree of eternal life, which God/gods didn't tell the humans about). Also, looking at the copper snake on the rod that Moses made to heal the people, same thing, and the Caduceus today (symbol on many hospitals and ambulances). The snake wasn't a symbol of evil but of truth back then. It wasn't a symbol of satan, devil, anti-god at all, but rather salvation. Jesus was the snake in a sense. The same copper snake hung on a tree for people to look at and get healed (spiritually), supposedly.

Jesus came (in a figurative meaning, I don't believe in the literal idea of Jesus) to save us from ourselves, our human nature and become gods, or actually just realized that we are already saved. We have the divine, god-spirit in us already, but it's not actualized without realization, and Jesus is the symbol to which we are supposed to imitate. By each one becoming a Jesus, or the Jesus in our own lives, we can find the salvation and know we are already one with God. That's how we're healed from spiritual sleep (or death) and born again (we were already born, but needed to wake up and seeing it).

What an interesting way of looking at it. It seems to make more sense when interpreted this way.

 

[Serenity7855]

Yes, I think so.

They're the ones who think they speak for God and have the ultimate and absolute truth. Knowing that we don't know everything and be humble about it, that's righteousness. To think that God is speaking through me and everyone has to listen to me, that's evil.

No, they are the ones that are a part of cosmic consciousness, the hidden reality, that is, those that have been illuminated by truth from the Morphic field, or the Holy Ghost, who influences our minds, souls and bodies. The evolution of our minds means that there are those, atheists, who have not attained this level of spiritual consciousness so see those who have as delusional or even mentally challenged. It is an inevitable consequence of where and who they have come from. Only those who knock the door will gain accesses, even though there is no door handle, they are enlightened by the spirit of God and possess a hidden reality that they readily share with the Morphic field of like minded individual. That is why we cannot share with those who refuse to participate in symbiosis. Only those who have a higher level of consciousness know God and his son Jesus Christ.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well, I might be slanderously incorrect. What Darwin said was this:

"But if (and Oh! What a big if!) we could conceive in some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity etc., present that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes"
I suppose it was others who extrapolated this idea of a "warm little pond" into pond scum, or slime as I referred to it. But honestly, I see little difference.

Warm little pond, pond scum, slime, wet particles of dust, it all seems the same to me.
But I do appreciate you calling my statement into question. I do prefer to be accurate.

No problem, I have a weird thing about quote mining. This is the best I could find for the full quote:

"It is often said, that all of the conditions for the first production of a living organism are now present, which could ever have been present. But if (and oh, what a big what if!) we could conceive in some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed.”
Darwin on Trial - Phillip E. Johnson - Google Books


Judging from what modern science has told us so far (Miller-Urey and subsequent studies), he appears to be barking up the right tree.

I guess what I’m failing to see is how this is comparable to particles of dust.

 

[WhatGod]

Anybody care to answer why God sent Jesus to save us?

Why in deed?

Why would a god need to incarnate himself by impregnating another man's betrothed and then start a new religion to persecute his chosen people by having himself tortured to death, in his name. All so he can forgive people about a sin that he set them up for in the first place.

Seems like he's maybe batsh!7 insane?

 

[Serenity7855]

Anybody care to answer why God sent Jesus to save us?
I mean, if we can save ourselves as some people claim, why was Jesus needed?
Same with Buddha, we don't need him either if we're quite capable of enlightening ourselves without him, right?..

I'll give it a go. I think it is two fold. It was His Plan. He put forward the plan in which he was to be our saviour. At that time, just prior to the war in heaven, he was like us. A spirit child of Heavenly Father. God could not do it himself as he cannot dwell in the presence of imperfection, as I have already spoken about, however, Jesus was Special, the most valiant spirit of us all and he volunteered and God, knowing that one as valiant as he, would be able to do it, sent him, his only begotten son. I wish I could remember it but that does not stop me from knowing it is true. Jesus Christ volunteered to be the Saviour of mankind. No one else could do it so the Father sent him, and probably wept.


Secondly, do not be fooled by the God incarnate rubbish. God is God and Jesus was Jesus. Two separate and distinct individuals. The roll of Jesus was to preach the word of God and then offer himself up as a Saviour of all mankind.

He suffered indescribable pain, until he bleed great drops of blood from every pour of his body in the Garden of Gethsemane. So much so that an angel of God came down to comfort him because he asked God that, if it be possible, take this cup from me. Why did he do endure such suffering like that? To atone for the sins of the world, for those who had lived, were living, and were yet to live. Yes, even for the atheists, the greatest of all sinner, having no moral accountability, did he suffer beyond our comprehension. And then for them to say they do not know him.

He was beaten and ridiculed by the Roman solders to within an inch of his life, and mocked as the King of the Jews as they places a Crown of thorns on his head, piercing his skin causing blood to trickle down his face.

He was then raised up on a pole, nails pierced through his wrists, palms and feet, to be crucified, the most monstrous form of execution ever devices by man, where he died an ignominious death, alone and destitute. He shouted the word, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" And then said, "it is done" and laid his life down and gave up the ghost so that all mankind could receive salvation in his name.

He then rose from the dead, as he said he would, and opened the gateway for all to gain salvation and exaltation, the very reason for our mortal probation, to prepare ourselves to meet God, the eternal father, yet again. And we have the ordacity to question such unprecedented suffering.

His roll was essential to God's marvelous work and wonder, that is, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all mankind. And to do it just because he loves us. That is why God sent him.

1. There was no other who could do It.

2. God could not do it as he is perfect.

3. I wanted to do it but I was nowhere near as valiant as my elder brother, even Jesus Christ, Amen

 

[BTROD]

2,000 years of the Christian message and look at its success !!! Zero !!! We are on the verge of extinction, so this saviour act has been a waste of time !!!

Christians can't agree on what the 'real' message is so they keep introducing different sects, how many variations are their of Christianity - I read it was in the region of 30,000 !!!

Belief systems as created by man are doomed to failure ! The conditioned ego is barbarically corrupted.

Look around, you don't have to look too far. Too many examples of what belief systems do.

Osho once said, 'Priests and politicians are the Mafia of the Soul'.

Spot on Osho.

Only its much, much worse now !

 

[Serenity7855]

2,000 years of the Christian message and look at its success !!! Zero !!! We are on the verge of extinction, so this saviour act has been a waste of time !!!

Isn't it funny how two people can look at the same story and one see doom and disaster and the others see a success story. Everything is going wrong at the right time. This has all been prophesied. This is how the story was always going to be. Mankind, in his carnal state, would become evil and corrupt and destroy themselves. Sad, as it maybe, however, prophecy fulfilled, is what it is

Christians can't agree on what the 'real' message is so they keep introducing different sects, how many variations are their of Christianity - I read it was in the region of 30,000 !!!

There is only one variation of Christianity. There may be thousands of faiths, most of them preaching false doctrine drawing near to God with their mouths but in their hearts being far from him, but there is only one religion, that is, Christianity. There is only one message, The Plan of Redemption. Faiths just misinterpret it.

Belief systems as created by man are doomed to failure ! The conditioned ego is barbarically corrupted.

That is very true, however, once again, prophesied. False prophets and all that.

Look around, you don't have to look too far. Too many examples of what belief systems do.

Yep, true again but prophesied again. This is what we should expect. Christ did not advocate that man should build edifices in which they should try and interpret his words. Christianity is personal. Far to many people are duped into thinking that going to church is all they need to do.

Osho once said, 'Priests and politicians are the Mafia of the Soul'.

Spot on Osho.

Don' t know him, but he is right.

Only its much, much worse now !

And it will get even worse before it get any better.

 

[Sonofason]

What do you mean by "non-determined manner?"

You'll have to ask Shad. He is the one who brought it up.

 

[Sonofason]

No problem, I have a weird thing about quote mining. This is the best I could find for the full quote:

"It is often said, that all of the conditions for the first production of a living organism are now present, which could ever have been present. But if (and oh, what a big what if!) we could conceive in some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed.”
Darwin on Trial - Phillip E. Johnson - Google Books


Judging from what modern science has told us so far (Miller-Urey and subsequent studies), he appears to be barking up the right tree.

I guess what I’m failing to see is how this is comparable to particles of dust.

Take bits of chemicals, whatever they might be, dry them up, and you have dust. Wet them a bit, and you have slime. Add a little sunlight, and you might have warm pond scum. To say life has arisen from pond scum, or from mixtures of chemicals in in a warm pond, or from dust is in my eyes pretty much the same. I bet you yourself would admit that we are star dust. Will you argue? We are dust. We are made from dust. It doesn't matter so much to me that the dust required wetting, or sunlight to miraculously become a life form. The fact is our origin is dust, just like the Bible says.

 

[Bunyip]

Take bits of chemicals, whatever they might be, dry them up, and you have dust. Wet them a bit, and you have slime. Add a little sunlight, and you might have warm pond scum. To say life has arisen from pond scum, or from mixtures of chemicals in in a warm pond, or from dust is in my eyes pretty much the same. I bet you yourself would admit that we are star dust. Will you argue? We are dust. We are made from dust. It doesn't matter so much to me that the dust required wetting, or sunlight to miraculously become a life form. The fact is our origin is dust, just like the Bible says.

That doesn't make sense. Take a cow, dry it up and you have dust - but not a cow. A cow is not the same thing as a pile of dust anymore than a self replicating protien is the same thing as a pile of dust.

Self replicating proteins are not dust, nor for that matter is pond scum.

 

[Shad]

Isn't it funny how two people can look at the same story and one see doom and disaster and the others see a success story. Everything is going wrong at the right time. This has all been prophesied. This is how the story was always going to be. Mankind, in his carnal state, would become evil and corrupt and destroy themselves. Sad, as it maybe, however, prophecy fulfilled, is what it is



There is only one variation of Christianity. There may be thousands of faiths, most of them preaching false doctrine drawing near to God with their mouths but in their hearts being far from him, but there is only one religion, that is, Christianity. There is only one message, The Plan of Redemption. Faiths just misinterpret it.



That is very true, however, once again, prophesied. False prophets and all that.



Yep, true again but prophesied again. This is what we should expect. Christ did not advocate that man should build edifices in which they should try and interpret his words. Christianity is personal. Far to many people are duped into thinking that going to church is all they need to do.



Don' t know him, but he is right.



And it will get even worse before it get any better.

Every few years in numerous places someone acts like chicken little and declares the sky is falling. All end up being wrong, usually after fools give them money. How much money have you given to chicken little or are you a chicken little yourself?

 

[Shad]

Take bits of chemicals, whatever they might be, dry them up, and you have dust. Wet them a bit, and you have slime. Add a little sunlight, and you might have warm pond scum. To say life has arisen from pond scum, or from mixtures of chemicals in in a warm pond, or from dust is in my eyes pretty much the same. I bet you yourself would admit that we are star dust. Will you argue? We are dust. We are made from dust. It doesn't matter so much to me that the dust required wetting, or sunlight to miraculously become a life form. The fact is our origin is dust, just like the Bible says.

Replace the word dirt with stuff. Such a precise terminology you have there.

 

[Serenity7855]

Every few years in numerous places someone acts like chicken little and declares the sky is falling. All end up being wrong, usually after fools give them money. How much money have you given to chicken little or are you a chicken little yourself?

I am sure that in your world this happens, however, in my world Chicken little has never made such a proclamation, oh, he knows that one day the sky will fall in, he just doesn't know when, so he never makes those predictions. Because of that he never takes money from people, plus the bible says that there should be no paid ministry, however, there are those who argue from ignorance because they do not have a clue what the real story of chicken little is, they just think they do. A little knowledge can be dangerous.

 

[Serenity7855]

.

Originally Posted by Sonofason View Post
Take bits of chemicals, whatever they might be, dry them up, and you have dust. Wet them a bit, and you have slime. Add a little sunlight, and you might have warm pond scum. To say life has arisen from pond scum, or from mixtures of chemicals in in a warm pond, or from dust is in my eyes pretty much the same. I bet you yourself would admit that we are star dust. Will you argue? We are dust. We are made from dust. It doesn't matter so much to me that the dust required wetting, or sunlight to miraculously become a life form. The fact is our origin is dust, just like the Bible says.

Replace the word dirt with stuff. Such a precise terminology you have there.

Why? I knew exactly what he meant and I have no formal education in that field.

 

[Serenity7855]

No problem, I have a weird thing about quote mining. This is the best I could find for the full quote:

"It is often said, that all of the conditions for the first production of a living organism are now present, which could ever have been present. But if (and oh, what a big what if!) we could conceive in some warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes, at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed.”
Darwin on Trial - Phillip E. Johnson - Google Books


Judging from what modern science has told us so far (Miller-Urey and subsequent studies), he appears to be barking up the right tree.

I guess what I’m failing to see is how this is comparable to particles of dust.

New research rejects 80-year theory of 'primordial soup' as the origin of life​

For 80 years it has been accepted that early life began in a "primordial soup" of organic molecules before evolving out of the oceans millions of years later. Today the "soup" theory has been overturned in a pioneering article which claims it was the Earth's chemical energy, from hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor, which kick-started early life

New research rejects 80-year theory of 'primordial soup' as the origin of life -- ScienceDaily

 

[WhatGod]

The fact is our origin is dust, just like the Bible says.

No. You are trying to make claims of knowledge for which the people who wrote the bible just plain did not have. You are also equivocating the term dust to the point that it means anything.

Further, dust does not form life - it lacks water and other necessary elements and energy. Life most likely arose from meteor impacts and volcanos in the water. Both are energetic enough to create amino acids and peptides. Olivine is a likely candidate for getting things jump started as it has structures for the early proto cell components and can act as a proton gradient in the right circumstances.

How life evolved: 10 steps to the first cells - 14 October 2009 - New Scientist

Was our oldest ancestor a proton-powered rock? -- Science & Technology -- Sott.net