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There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
This is what's referred to as "being ridiculously defensive". All they did was ask you a couple of straightforward questions. This is an open forum, where anyone can read and respond to whatever they want to; that, in fact, is the whole point and the very difference between a private discussion and a forum. If you don't wish for people to chime in on discussions you are having with other posters, or to give you opinions or questions about a subject you are discussing, then I kindly suggest that you find another outlet for your opinions than a free-to-join internet discussion forum where the ability to do so is the entire point of the site, or at the very least move your discussion to private messaging.

What surprises me is when you have Christians behaving like this. Is this some new kind of evangelization technique spreading? Scare people away from talking to them, and then somehow that will convince people about their message? I'm not sure how that would work. When I was Christian, I worked hard to be approachable and even engaged talking to people, not shutting them out. The world is definitely changing.
 

theistboy

New Member
The proof we have today that God exists is The Quran. Quran is a miracle from God. you probably think why the Quran is a miracle?


Why is the Qur’an a Miracle?

What makes the Qur’an a miracle, is that it is impossible for a human being to compose something like it, as it lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic LANGUAGE. The productive capacity of nature, concerning the Arabic language, is that any grammatically sound expression of the Arabic language will always fall with-in the known Arabic literary forms of prose and poetry. All of the possible combinations of Arabic words, letters and grammatical rules have been exhausted and yet its literary form has not been matched linguistically. The Arabs, who were known to have been Arabic linguists par excellence, failed to successfully challenge the Qur’an. Forster Fitzgerald Arbuthnot, who was a notable British Orientalist and translator, states:

“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.”[11]

The implication of this is that there is no link between the Qur’an and the Arabic language; however this seems impossible because the Qur’an is made up of the Arabic language. On the other hand, every combination of Arabic words and letters have been used to try and imitate the Qur’an. Therefore, this leaves only one conclusion; a Divine explanation is the only coherent explanation for this impossible Arabic literary form – the Qur’an. Hence, it logically follows that if the Qur’an is a literary EVENT that lies outside the productive capacity of the Arabic language, i.e. an impossibility, then by definition, it is a miracle.

The challenge in the Qur’an

In the following verses Allah has challenged the whole of mankind to try and produce a SINGLE chapter like the Qur’an. This challenge, which has remained unmet, captivated the minds of the Arabs at the time of revelat-ion. They rationally assessed that if an Arab cannot challenge the Qur’an and nor could a non-Arab, then the only source of the Qur’an is the Creator. The Qur’an states:

“If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our Messenger, then produce one chapter like it, call upon all your helpers, besides Allah, if you are truthful.” Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer) 2: 23.

“Or do they say: “He (Prophet Muhammad, ) has forged it (this Qur’an)?” Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recitation like it (the Qur’an) if they are truthful.” Surah at-Toor (The Mount) 52: 33-34.

According to Qur’anic commentators such as Ibn Kathir, Suyuti and Ibn Abbas, these verses issue a challenge to produce a chapter that imitates the unique literary form of the Qur’an.[12] The tools needed to meet this challenge are the finite grammatical rules and the twenty eight letters that make-up the Arabic alphabet; these are independent and objective measures available to all. The fact that it has not been matched since it was revealed does not surprise scholars familiar with the Arabic language and that of the Qur’an.

The Qur’an was revealed over 1430 years ago and the challenge to produce something like the Qur’an has remained to this day. Throughout the centuries, thinkers, poets, theologians and literary critics have attempted to challenge the Qur’an. Some of these challengers in the past have included: Musaylamah; Ibn Al-Mukaffa; Yahya ibn Al-Hakam al-Ghazal; Sayyid ‘Ali Muhammad; Bassar ibn Burd.

Without going into an EXTENSIVE analysis of why Muslim and non-Muslim scholars have agreed that those who have attempted to challenge the Qur’an have failed, the following summary should suffice. Even though the challengers have had the same set of ‘tools’, which are the twenty eight Arabic letters, finite grammatical rules and the blue print of the challenge – which is the Qur’an itself; they have failed to:

1. Replicate the Qur’an’s literary form
2. Match the unique linguistic nature of the Qur’an
3. Select and arrange words like that of the Qur’an
4. Select and arrange similar grammatical particles
5. Match the Qur’an’s superior eloquence and sound
6. Equal the frequency of rhetorical devices
7. Match the level of content and informativeness
8. Equal the Qur’an’s conciseness and flexibility

There is no doubt that IF the Qur'an were the word of a human and the Prophet (p.b.u.h.), himself, who was known to the world as an illiterate one, had produced it, they would bring many Qur'ans like it and would prove that this is not the word of Allah(God) revealed to him (p.b.u.h.). In that condition, the enemies of Islam would maintain their works which would be available everywhere and in any ages so that they could publish and distribute them, even now, to defame the one genuine Qur'an, but there is none.

No human on earth have ever produced a small chapter similary to the ARABIC language of the Quran.

Beside the miracle of the Quran, God has sent many prophets on earth to show his existence to mankind. God has sent prophets such as Noah, David, Solomon, Jesus, Moses, Adam, Jacob, Joseph, Abraham Isaac and the final prophet Muhammad. And these prophets performed miracles, which God gave them the ability to perform these miracles , and all the prophet cam with the same message, that God exists and we should worship him.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Have you read these five verses? Are you reading Exodus 21:2-6? Only what you are saying does not match that which has been written. The children came under the same laws as their parents, a seven year contract. Of course the children or the wife given whilst in servitude would remain the servants of the master after the man did his seven years. They were still under their seven year contract. I thought that was a given. Why would they set free the man and keep the woman forever? You are painting the Masters in an unsavoury light, we do not know that. That is pure conjecture and intended to taunt Christians rather then have honest debate.

Are you reading Exodus 21:2-6?

Exodus 21:2-6
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.



Nobody is trying to taunt anybody. Some of us are trying to figure out why the god of the Bible seems to condone slavery and why people living in the 21st century seem to be defending it.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Exodus 21:2-6 Does refer to slaves, the Hebrew word 'ebed' means a slave, servant, man servant or subject. There is no distinction in Hebrew between slave and servant.

Besides whatever word they used, the thing that is being described is slavery. I.e. A person who is the legal property of another person and is forced to obey them.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
What surprises me is when you have Christians behaving like this. Is this some new kind of evangelization technique spreading? Scare people away from talking to them, and then somehow that will convince people about their message? I'm not sure how that would work. When I was Christian, I worked hard to be approachable and even engaged talking to people, not shutting them out. The world is definitely changing.

Now that you mention it, I've seen a lot of this lately. It's kind of surprising, given the nature of a discussion forum.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
..I have demonstrated that God and the bible are not good..

Which bit of this do you think is "not good" mate?-
"Love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"-Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)
 

Shad

Veteran Member
What makes the Qur’an a miracle, is that it is impossible for a human being to compose something like it, as it lies outside the productive capacity of the nature of the Arabic LANGUAGE.

Arabic is a human language thus is it not outside human captacity to produce

“…and that though several attempts have been made to produce a work equal to it as far as elegant writing is concerned, none has as yet succeeded.”
A few did in Mo's time, they mocked his work and he had them killed.

The implication of this is that there is no link between the Qur’an and the Arabic language; however this seems impossible because the Qur’an is made up of the Arabic language. On the other hand, every combination of Arabic words and letters have been used to try and imitate the Qur’an. Therefore, this leaves only one conclusion; a Divine explanation is the only coherent explanation for this impossible Arabic literary form – the Qur’an. Hence, it logically follows that if the Qur’an is a literary EVENT that lies outside the productive capacity of the Arabic language, i.e. an impossibility, then by definition, it is a miracle.
Again Arabic is a human language. You have an argument from incredibility here. One might as well the best pie made is beyond human capacity yet said pie is made using normal pie recipes. No logic here just illogical conclusions

The challenge in the Qur’an

In the following verses Allah has challenged the whole of mankind to try and produce a SINGLE chapter like the Qur’an. This challenge, which has remained unmet, captivated the minds of the Arabs at the time of revelat-ion. They rationally assessed that if an Arab cannot challenge the Qur’an and nor could a non-Arab, then the only source of the Qur’an is the Creator. The Qur’an states:
No need we have produced works of art, science, poetry, etc. We have produced hundreds of works better than a rambling body about the end of the world.

“If you are in doubt of what We have revealed to Our Messenger, then produce one chapter like it, call upon all your helpers, besides Allah, if you are truthful.” Surah al-Baqarah (The Heifer) 2: 23.

“Or do they say: “He (Prophet Muhammad, ) has forged it (this Qur’an)?” Nay! They believe not! Let them then produce a recitation like it (the Qur’an) if they are truthful.” Surah at-Toor (The Mount) 52: 33-34.

According to Qur’anic commentators such as Ibn Kathir, Suyuti and Ibn Abbas, these verses issue a challenge to produce a chapter that imitates the unique literary form of the Qur’an.[12] The tools needed to meet this challenge are the finite grammatical rules and the twenty eight letters that make-up the Arabic alphabet; these are independent and objective measures available to all. The fact that it has not been matched since it was revealed does not surprise scholars familiar with the Arabic language and that of the Qur’an.

Art is subjective, the Quran is art. No one bothers as this challenge is subjective and no Muslim would admit to a sucessful challenge due to dogma and doctrine

Without going into an EXTENSIVE analysis of why Muslim and non-Muslim scholars have agreed that those who have attempted to challenge the Qur’an have failed, the following summary should suffice. Even though the challengers have had the same set of ‘tools’, which are the twenty eight Arabic letters, finite grammatical rules and the blue print of the challenge – which is the Qur’an itself; they have failed to:

You mean without proving your case you will just make baseless claims

Make a pie better than my girlfriend. If you can not this pie must be from God. Stupid arguments result in stupid answers.

There is no doubt that IF the Qur'an were the word of a human and the Prophet (p.b.u.h.), himself, who was known to the world as an illiterate one, had produced it, they would bring many Qur'ans like it and would prove that this is not the word of Allah(God) revealed to him (p.b.u.h.). In that condition, the enemies of Islam would maintain their works which would be available everywhere and in any ages so that they could publish and distribute them, even now, to defame the one genuine Qur'an, but there is none.

Illiterate does not mean on can not speak nor speak poetry. Another argument from incredibility.

Theist should start forming their own arguments rather than copying and paste whatever drivel they happen to Google.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
There are no gods, thus there are no "sacred words." Your defending an empty room.

You're trying to expose people who know the room is empty to the empty room? That makes no sense what-so-ever.
Most of the agression seems to be on your part.

Interesting contradiction between thought and action.

The room is only empty to those who do not have eyes to see. They are fools who believe they have twenty twenty vision whilst wearing blinkers for fear that they may stumble upon the truth. I see a full room, that has always been occupied..
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
So you claim to know me and my beliefs? Because you don't.

No, you cannot know anyone on here personally, however, you can partake of their fruit and tell whether they are bitter or sweet. There is no doubt, in my mind, that this posters fruit are bitter. The taunting of Christians gave it away for me.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
This is what's referred to as "being ridiculously defensive". All they did was ask you a couple of straightforward questions. This is an open forum, where anyone can read and respond to whatever they want to; that, in fact, is the whole point and the very difference between a private discussion and a forum. If you don't wish for people to chime in on discussions you are having with other posters, or to give you opinions or questions about a subject you are discussing, then I kindly suggest that you find another outlet for your opinions than a free-to-join internet discussion forum where the ability to do so is the entire point of the site, or at the very least move your discussion to private messaging.

You forget that their is etiquette. I never intervene on another Christians debate unless he is under attack from the atheist pack. It is bad mannered to suppose you are more knowledgeable to answer the other person's post then he is. It also gives an impression of bullying. Just allow poster to respond to their own post. It is the right thing to do.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Ah so if multiple atheists are challenging a theist's arguments it is a pack. So I guess when theists defend other theists it is herd mentality right
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
What surprises me is when you have Christians behaving like this. Is this some new kind of evangelization technique spreading? Scare people away from talking to them, and then somehow that will convince people about their message? I'm not sure how that would work. When I was Christian, I worked hard to be approachable and even engaged talking to people, not shutting them out. The world is definitely changing.

You can never plant a mustard seed on stoney ground. It will never grow and flourish, it will whither and die in a rancid pool of slime that is washed away by rain fall. Christians are today looking for the seeds that have been sown in earth full of good nutrients making the firm and strong, capable of withstanding the storms of life. It is becoming to late for souls such as yourself to find a way back to that straight and narrow path that leads to life eternal. Posters, such as yourself, are becoming an unwelcome guest at the Lord's table so are shunned and ignored. There is a feast in the process of preparation and your ilk are not invited anymore. Your passes have been rescinded.

I have just read that you are a failed Christian, the worst kind of critic of God and the ones who will be the most heavily judged. Unto those that much is given, much is expected.
 

Apple Sugar

Active Member
What you are doing is what is called being ridiculously offensive. And you're just a multiple of the one that started it all.

What they did was interject themselves into a discourse between two people when they had no idea what those two people had been discussing early on so as to then interject their two uninformed cents.
And now what is being done is that absurd butting in is snowballing as other board bullies take that as an opportunity to point and say: See? That's what theists do!
While failing to realize as atheists they're showing everyone what they're about.

I'll make it really simple for you and your kind who have jumped on Orb's bandwagon.
Yes, it's an open board. That doesn't mean you violate the common decency that is afforded conversation between two people. Especially when you don't know what the hell those two people are talking about but you just want to vomit something into the discourse after you've picked a side. And it should be noted, compound the offense by refusing to go back and even try to catch up on what those two people were saying so as to come in now as you interject yourself into something that is no different than it was for Orb, i.e. not your business, and make personal attacks, get defensive in Orb's name, and still show you don't know what you're talking about.




*edit*

This is what's referred to as "being ridiculously defensive". All they did was ask you a couple of straightforward questions. This is an open forum, where anyone can read and respond to whatever they want to; that, in fact, is the whole point and the very difference between a private discussion and a forum. If you don't wish for people to chime in on discussions you are having with other posters, or to give you opinions or questions about a subject you are discussing, then I kindly suggest that you find another outlet for your opinions than a free-to-join internet discussion forum where the ability to do so is the entire point of the site, or at the very least move your discussion to private messaging.
 
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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Yes. Very.

I'm putting you on my ignore list, so you can be sure that you stay safe from any "attack" from me in the future. This is the last time you see me respond to any of your posts.

Jesus must be smiling, since the fruits of the spirit is coming through so strongly in you. :/ And I'm sure you'll win a lot of people over with your aggressive methods... not. I wish you happy trolling for Jesus.
 
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Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
Apple are you serious? You interjected your self into a discussion between me and another member, you then proceeded to talk for me as if you knew anything about me or my beliefs. The only reason you and I are having a discussion is because I had to ask you not falsely represent me or my beliefs and opinions.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Are you reading Exodus 21:2-6?

Exodus 21:2-6
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

If it were to be that the slave would remain the permanent property of his/her master then that is what the scripture would have said

It says:

4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

If what you are saying is true, which it blatantly is not, then it would have read.

4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master for life, and only the man shall go free.

It only becomes a lifelong contract if that is what the servant wants. But we are talking about servants and not slaves

Nobody is trying to taunt anybody. Some of us are trying to figure out why the god of the Bible seems to condone slavery and why people living in the 21st century seem to be defending it.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is blatantly obvious that there are atheists here who are entertained by taunting Christians. But those who laugh last laugh the longest.

I could answer your question as to why God condones slavery if he actually did. No body here has demonstrated that he has, so no answer is required. Secondly, I doubt very much that anyone in the civilised world defends slavery. How you have concluded that is bewildering and no doubt a taunt is there somewhere. This discussion is not about the rights and wrongs of slavery, it is about whether God advocates it. He doesn't, end of discussion, unless you have evidence to the contrary.
 
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Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Besides whatever word they used, the thing that is being described is slavery. I.e. A person who is the legal property of another person and is forced to obey them.

Your friend, Bunyip, is wrong. The word "slave" and "servant" are both used in the bible describing two different premises. The words are not interchangeable, therefore, they are unique in the context that they were written. Secondly, I do not read a Hebrew Bible. I read the God inspired English translation intended for my eyes. Always best to listen to the scholars that know what they are talking about rather then those who think they know. You can distinguish between the two by the fruits they produce.
 
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