There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

[TheGunShoj]

It is true. Sadly, there are those that, for some unknown reason, want it to be untrue. They are not satisfied to leave people alone in their personal beliefs. They make it their business to taunt Christians

Beliefs inform actions. If people could keep their beliefs to themselves and stop trying to legislate laws which force others to abide by their beliefs then you might see yourself being left alone a lot more.

 

[adi2d]

It is true. Sadly, there are those that, for some unknown reason, want it to be untrue. They are not satisfied to leave people alone in their personal beliefs. They make it their business to taunt Christians

I'm not one of those people. I'm looking for the truth. Sorry people won't leave you alone with your beliefs but this is the debate area of RF.

 

[Serenity7855]

Beliefs are not insular. That's the problem. Always so busy feeling like your being attached, never once realizing we might feel the same way.

Take a look at the post of lewisnotmiller. How is it even possible to attack this poster, who is an atheist. Atheists on here would do well to follow his lead. He pulls no punches and simply does not believe in God, which is fine, nothing wrong in that, it is his choice, however, he does not condemn those who do, and I could not bring myself to issue a single hostile word to him. I am amazed with his whole persona. Oh that all atheists were the same.

 

[Iti oj]

Take a look at the post of lewisnotmiller. How is it even possible to attack this poster, who is an atheist. Atheists on here would do well to follow his lead. He pulls no punches and simply does not believe in God, which is fine, nothing wrong in that, it is his choice, however, he does not condemn those who do, and I could not bring myself to issue a single hostile word to him. I am amazed with his whole persona. Oh that all atheists were the same.

I didn't mean individual attacks. Like I said beliefs are not insular.

 

[Serenity7855]

I'm not one of those people. I'm looking for the truth. Sorry people won't leave you alone with your beliefs but this is the debate area of RF.

Maybe you should take another look at the Word "debate". It does not mean that you should be nasty and hostile. It means that you should exchange ideas and belief amicably and with decorum avoiding trickery and sophistry.

 

[Serenity7855]

Beliefs inform actions. If people could keep their beliefs to themselves and stop trying to legislate laws which force others to abide by their beliefs then you might see yourself being left alone a lot more.

In the UK religion has no say in anything. Laws are passed by politicians and not preachers. Religion is personal and the only ones you see evangelising is Mormon Missionaries and JWs. People here keep their beliefs to themselves. No one talks religion. I only talk religion here. Rarely anywhere else. There are no evangelists on our TV. You have to watch American TV for that.

 

[Iti oj]

In the UK religion has no say in anything. Laws are passed by politicians and not preachers. Religion is personal and the only ones you see evangelising is Mormon Missionaries and JWs. People here keep their beliefs to themselves. No one talks religion. I only talk religion here. Rarely anywhere else. There are no evangelists on our TV. You have to watch American TV for that.

I'm from America and wish I could say the same.

 

[Iti oj]

That is not how it works, as I have said, God cannot dwell in the presence of imperfection, however, the Holy Ghost is a spirit so he can dwell with imperfection. The draw back there is that the Holy Ghost is an influence that fills the emencity of space. Those who live a Christ centred life and are sufficiently worthy can tap into that influence like tapping into a quantum sub-automic field. This goes even deeper, however, I doubt whether you can comprehend this let alone the deeper doctrines of God. So, Moses would have fasted and prayed putting before God, via the influence of the Holy Ghost, his plan or the laws that he had devised. He would have received either a swelling of the bosom and a confirmatory feeling sanctioning his proposal. If the answer is no, then he would have received a stupor of thought. The crucial part of this process is what Moses does with the information he receives. What ever he does must be his choice as God cannot intervene he can only influence. There has to be total free agency or the entire plan of salvation fails. At the end of the day it is the decision of Moses. The plan of Redemption is a perfect plan. It cannot be faulted. I have tried hard but failed. So knock yourself out trying, you will never ever succeed. Sorry for the arrogance but I have asked many of these question and have never found a single error or fault.

I'm contemplating this point and working on my next set of questions.

 

[TheGunShoj]

I'm from America and wish I could say the same.

Indeed. +1

 

[TheGunShoj]

In the UK religion has no say in anything. Laws are passed by politicians and not preachers. Religion is personal and the only ones you see evangelising is Mormon Missionaries and JWs. People here keep their beliefs to themselves. No one talks religion. I only talk religion here. Rarely anywhere else. There are no evangelists on our TV. You have to watch American TV for that.

Based on that statement, it makes it all the more interesting when you make blanket statements about all atheists when it sounds like you don't talk to many in person (at least not regarding religion) You're only basing your opinion on a small sample group of which many people in that group will say whatever they want without a filter due to the anonymity of the internet.

 

[Serenity7855]

Based on that statement, it makes it all the more interesting when you make blanket statements about all atheists when it sounds like you don't talk to many in person (at least not regarding religion) You're only basing your opinion on a small sample group of which many people in that group will say whatever they want without a filter due to the anonymity of the internet.

Absolutely right. I have some very good and loyal friends who do not believe in anything, not even a superior being. I only know that because on the rare occasion, when we drink too much and try and right the wrongs of the world, we will all have a light conversation on politics and religion. The British are very reserved. We do not talk about religion or politics. It causes arguments. We do not like to argue for fear of offending. But take away our identity and we run wild. I only speak of my religious beliefs on forums like this. My experience with aggressive atheists is from forums like this and the main characters in the public eye. None of my atheist friends are aggressive and I only respond to aggression on these forums. Yes, I am only basing my opinion on a small sample group of which many people in that group will say whatever they want without a filter due to the anonymity of the internet, however, I have claimed no different. Maybe if my atheist buddies joined a religious forum they might be aggressive as well. If you met me you would not know that I am a devout christian, that is, until we take the blind fold off and you find yourself in a baptismal font.

Oh, I try not to make blanket statements. I usually preface the word atheist with "angry", aggressive" or "militant in order to distinguish them from your run of the mill atheists.

 

[TheGunShoj]

If I could take any reasonable man, from off the street, who was totally impartial and without mindless bigotry, void of the brain washing techniques of Atheists and open minded enough to learn, I could satisfy his mind

So why is it that Atheists have such leverage in our society to preach their counterfeit arguments.

Do you think your atheist friends might take offense to these statements? Do these statements apply to them?

 

[Iti oj]

I guess I'm still militant to you, I thought you were warming up to me.

Anyways I hope my point was made and you can see where the others and I are coming from now. Still thinking on your last post.

I would also like to point out I was only "militant" in respons to you calling the rape of woman and murder of children gods justice.

 

[Serenity7855]

Do you think your atheist friends might take offense to these statements? Do these statements apply to them?

It was a part of a survey I did. I never mix work with my social life. I am sure that if the technique were used on my friends that it would work, however, I am not altogether convinced that it is ethical. It is a part of a program by our government to determine whether the reintroduction of religion into our society might reduce the moral decline in our country. It works. I have seen it work. I just believe that it messes with free agency by planting a purpose built seed into the brain that has a rapid growth.

 

[Serenity7855]

I guess I'm still militant to you, I thought you were warming up to me.

Anyways I hope my point was made and you can see where the others and I are coming from now. Still thinking on your last post.

I would also like to point out I was only "militant" in respons to you calling the rape of woman and murder of children gods justice.

A wise old man once said to me that we should treat others as they may become not as they are or were. People change, especially when the realise that their Judgement may have been in error. I try not to judge no man, as I am as imperfect as anybody else. I hold no grudges and bear no malice or vendetta against anyone.. I do not believe that I said that it was Gods justice on anyone as I am resolute that God does not intervene.

 

[Iti oj]

In every case the retribution are a direct result of inequities performed by man that were so severe that a death penalty was given to them.It was Gods justice. You need to look at the history of these people to know that they reaped what they sowed. A universal supernatural law.

you also brought up the argument that it was a prophet speaking not god, a point I'm still contemplating. Anyways I. Only dig this to try and show you where I am coming from.

That my reaction was not of a militant atheist but a disgusted humanist.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

To be honest, I do not believe in the trinity, or God incarnate. It is not mentioned in the bible, yet the founding forefathers, in their wisdom, decided that was Gods nature. But better then that the following verses talk of three separate entities and not a trinity. It happens throughout the bible when Jesus speaks to God. If a trinity were true then he is speaking to himself. No, a trinity, or God incarnate, is illogical.

Interesting. I'm glad, in a sense, only because I have always found the Trinity a difficult concept to fully comprehend without leaving monotheism. I read a lot of ancient history, and Byzantium is a particular area of interest, so it's hard to avoid discussion on the Trinity, and whether it's biblically supported. I don't have a horse in the race, so to speak, I just find Trinitarianism a little hard to grasp.

You, my friend, are a breath of fresh air. I am not an evangelist, I am not trying to convert you or anybody else to Christianity or claim that I am a better person then you because I am a Christian. I cannot convert you or anybody else. It is quite impossible. Conversion is personal and the choice of the individual. I can answer questions but conversion is down to the individual and their personal desires. To me, you sound like a pretty decent chap so your half ways there anyway.

Well, whether it was because she was a Christian or not, my mum taught me to treat others as I want to be treated. I don't expect people to agree with me, but I'd prefer they'd listed, and try to understand my perspective. Which behooves me to do the same.

But that is OK. It is my belief. I honestly do not expect everyone or anyone to believe it is true. It is true for me so it floats my boat.

Solid.

Most of it is in the bible, however, I was a Mormon for 25 years before I realised that it was not entirely for me, so I left, taking with me some of their doctrines that seemed like sense to me and we're conformable in the Holy Bible. Basically, sound Mormon interpretations. Today I stand on my own. I have no denominations, no Pastors or Priests interpreting what I am perfectly capable of interpreting myself, specifically for me, unless you ask me questions. I am a bit of a realist. As with everything in my life religion must be plausible it cannot be magical and impossible, like the trinity or an interventionary God in a system governed by free agency. It is illogical.

Okay. I can respect that. I've always tried to view sense as sense, regardless of source. There were parts of the bible I found contradictory or of no use, and there were parts I found quite challenging or wise. I always try to hold onto the wise stuff, regardless of source.

I'll admit, though, that I have to force myself to be as even-handed as I can. Some sources I am more suspicious of than others.

To be honest, I have never looked on it like that before. Hmm, I will have to give it some thought. It sounds ok but it will stir up the scientists here, but why not. It would just be undiscovered natural laws.

Yeah, exactly. I tend to think of myself as a methodological naturalist rather than a pure materialist. It's more a philosophical difference than a pragmatic one, to be honest. But as an example, let's say science suddenly discovered that ghosts were real. I hazard a guess that doing this via scientific method means we suddenly have evidence of something that didn't fit into our previous natural laws (ie. our scientific understanding of nature).

We might see that as supernatural, but I think it more likely we'd re-assess what 'natural' means, and incorporate the new information.

I think it's a more equitable and workable position for theist and non-theist alike.

Again, I am an infant with objective and subjective morality. Whether morals would still exist without a God or is a God necessary for us to have morals. I really don't know, and now I am looking at epigenetic, which indicates that genes can change depending on the environment we live in, so, could we become moral anyway, over time, in a specific environment, or do we have to have a moral compass, moral accountability. I don't have those answers yet.

Just keep an open mind. My position is that morals are subjective, but it probably depends how you define 'objective morality' to some extent. If you ever want to discuss this in more detail, let me know. I'm not expert either, though. Much like you, it's just something I've thought about.

Wickedness, to me, is the wilful contravention of Gods commandments without any remorse or conscious.

For the most part I can live with that. Devil is usually in the detail with this sort of stuff, but on the face of it, I like the inclusion of 'willful', and the acknowledgement of 'remorse'. This gives an attainable edge to your definition.

Well, that is a first. Most people think that God can do the impossible, like a magician, but that is absurd. You sure you are an atheist . It is good to see that I am not unique in my train of thought.

*chuckles*
I'm as spiritual as concrete dust, to be honest. But I also allow for the fact that other people have different views than me on all sorts of stuff. Politics, morality, religion, football...everything...
So I like to understand other people's points of views. Cynically, understanding them gives me a better chance to turn them around to my point of view, although that's more true for football or politics than religion or morality.
But mostly, I just find I like to have at least a basic understanding of the world around me, and the people who inhabit it.

Religion, as a concept, is going nowhere, regardless of the truth I personally see in it. And I've seen it do good things for individuals, as well as versions of it than manage to stick to a simple, humanistic message not dissimilar to what secular humanists believe anyway.

If someone takes a different path to me, but ends up in a life-affirming place that encourages them to treat their fellow humans well, who am I to judge?

Of course, I need to understand the basics of their morality and thoughts before I can tell that. And that is true regardless of their religion/non-religion.

Simple answer, it has to be both. It is an overall Judgement so everything must be taken into consideration. Even things like the era in which you lived, the music you listened to, your peer group, you parents, the government, your siblings. Anything that could effect your choices.

Cool. Thanks for explaining, I know you're busy in this thread. I'll leave you to it from here, I think, although I'll check in, in case you have any questions or points for me.
But I think I understand you a little better than I did, which is a good thing.

 

[Serenity7855]

you also brought up the argument that it was a prophet speaking not god, a point I'm still contemplating. Anyways I. Only dig this to try and show you where I am coming from.

That my reaction was not of a militant atheist but a disgusted humanist.

Yes, but I am referring to universal supernatural laws, although my wording is mis-leading. The law - when a people become sufficiently wicked, and they have ignored all the warnings, then their destruction is assured. Basically, it is cause and effect. I do not recall why I said Gods Justice as I do not think that he can prevent it anymore then he could stop the effects of gravity.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is not how it works, as I have said, God cannot dwell in the presence of imperfection, however, the Holy Ghost is a spirit so he can dwell with imperfection. The draw back there is that the Holy Ghost is an influence that fills the emencity of space. Those who live a Christ centred life and are sufficiently worthy can tap into that influence like tapping into a quantum sub-automic field. This goes even deeper, however, I doubt whether you can comprehend this let alone the deeper doctrines of God. So, Moses would have fasted and prayed putting before God, via the influence of the Holy Ghost, his plan or the laws that he had devised. He would have received either a swelling of the bosom and a confirmatory feeling sanctioning his proposal. If the answer is no, then he would have received a stupor of thought. The crucial part of this process is what Moses does with the information he receives. What ever he does must be his choice as God cannot intervene he can only influence. There has to be total free agency or the entire plan of salvation fails. At the end of the day it is the decision of Moses. The plan of Redemption is a perfect plan. It cannot be faulted. I have tried hard but failed. So knock yourself out trying, you will never ever succeed. Sorry for the arrogance but I have asked many of these question and have never found a single error or fault.

Then maybe you need to understand that other people have asked many of these questions and have found errors and faults with it. You seem to be upset with the very idea of discussing them.

 

[Serenity7855]

Then maybe you need to understand that other people have asked many of these questions and have found errors and faults with it. You seem to be upset with the very idea of discussing them.

Words are cheap, unless you can substantiate them with evidence. I await your evidence for your indictment, of me being upset with the idea of discussing them, before I give a full response.