There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[mikkel_the_dane]

And why do you accept the Bible as authoritative? Why not use the same techniques to determine the reliability of the Bible as would be used for any other collection of books from the ancient world?

Why not use the Koran instead of the Bible? Why not use the Baghdad-Gita? Why select that particular collection of writings as authoritative?

For that matter, why accept any writings as authoritative? Why not see which parts are valid and which are invalid?

I would like to see that done for morality. I mean facts are easy, once you learn how they work.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And why do you accept the Bible as authoritative? Why not use the same techniques to determine the reliability of the Bible as would be used for any other collection of books from the ancient world?

Why not use the Koran instead of the Bible? Why not use the Baghdad-Gita? Why select that particular collection of writings as authoritative?

For that matter, why accept any writings as authoritative? Why not see which parts are valid and which are invalid?

Because as I told you so many times already that God revealed Himself to me, delivered me, gave me His Spirit and Eternal Life through Jesus Christ, The Bible is His Word and Truth not those other books.

 

[Polymath257]

Because as I told you so many times already that God revealed Himself to me, delivered me, gave me His Spirit and Eternal Life through Jesus Christ, The Bible is His Word and Truth not those other books.

To me, that sounds like

My mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts!

 

[ElishaElijah]

To me, that sounds like

My mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts!

Who you? Because it’s a fact God revealed Himself to me so yeah no one can change what He did and continues to do.
I found other books and religions to be counterfeits and work your way to god’s favor or somehow be good enough to get to heaven, didn’t see any power over the sinful flesh or any way to cleanse your conscience.

 

[samtonga43]

To me, that sounds like
My mind's made up, don't confuse me with facts!

Of course that's how it sounds to you, Polymath. When I was an atheist, I would have said exactly what you just said.

Perhaps your mind is made up. Perhaps you don't want to be confused by other people's experiences of God.

Is this possible?

 

[Five Solas]

No, it *claims* they had good reasons. it does not *show* they have good reasons. it was based on what *they accepted* as having been God doing things in the past.

That isn't evidence.

That, my friend, is your subjective opinion except if you are able to verify that stance.

Be my guest...

 

[nPeace]

Hebrews 11:1 NIV. Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.


It’s terrible to see how people use and abuse this verse without bothering to understand the context. Please refrain from quoting it if you are too lazy to understand the correct meaning of it.


This text speaks of real, saving faith in God. Each example of biblical faith in this chapter demonstrates trust, based on what that person knew about how God acted in the past and the reassurance that God would act in the same way now or in the future.


That is evidence-based faith!!!!


The "assurance" of saving faith is, therefore, not blind belief. It is based on the proof found in history. It is the belief that God cannot change and can be trusted to on doing what He had done in the past.


A study of the various characters mentioned in this chapter shows that they all had good reasons to trust in God. Their faith was based on past experiences.


We find the same thing many times in Scripture – the confidence that God will make good on His promises.


The great figures of the Old Testament, such as Abraham, Moses, and David, all lived according to this type of faith. This is saving faith that inspires real Christians towards a more confident faith.


In this context: Faith accepts things that are promised by God but are still unfulfilled.

Well said.
According to the Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (1963, p. 660), Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: “Faith is the title deed of things hoped for.”

So, faith is like possessing a title deed - a guarantee, being absolutely sure of everything God has promised, even though we do not see them at present.
The solid evidence we have makes our conviction absolute.

The Greek word eʹleg·khos, rendered “evident demonstration,” conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Well said.
According to the Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (1963, p. 660), Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: “Faith is the title deed of things hoped for.”

So, faith is like possessing a title deed - a guarantee, being absolutely sure of everything God has promised, even though we do not see them at present.
The solid evidence we have makes our conviction absolute.

The Greek word eʹleg·khos, rendered “evident demonstration,” conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case.

I am totally sure also, but just for a different worldview. Now what?

 

[Five Solas]

Why would you think I need to disprove any of the theists' faith-based beliefs? I'm not trying to talk them (or you) out of them, and don't mind them holding them. If you trying to get skeptics to believe the biblical story of salvation, you'll need to make a plausible argument. Then we can have a discussion.



I guess these words must have different meaning for you than me. For me, a belief is any idea I hold that I consider correct. If I believed that God existed, I would call that a belief.



If you look two posts above this to my reply to InChrist, you'll understand why I hold those opinions regarding all theists. It doesn't matter to me how certain the theist is of his belief in a deity, I reject his unevidenced claim. I understand the limits of knowledge that we are all subject to, as well as the psychological state understood as experiencing God. And I do know you to some extent. You're a human being. That fact alone means that I know much about you, just as you do me. I know you get tired. I know you get hungry. I know that you are susceptible to cognitive biases including the will to believe in a powerful father figure, because I've been there. I know that you have no more senses or faculties than I, and no access to any information not also available to me.

Why would you think I need to disprove any of the theists' faith-based beliefs? I'm not trying to talk them (or you) out of them, and don't mind them holding them. If you trying to get skeptics to believe the biblical story of salvation, you'll need to make a plausible argument. Then we can have a discussion.



I guess these words must have different meaning for you than me. For me, a belief is any idea I hold that I consider correct. If I believed that God existed, I would call that a belief.



If you look two posts above this to my reply to InChrist, you'll understand why I hold those opinions regarding all theists. It doesn't matter to me how certain the theist is of his belief in a deity, I reject his unevidenced claim. I understand the limits of knowledge that we are all subject to, as well as the psychological state understood as experiencing God. And I do know you to some extent. You're a human being. That fact alone means that I know much about you, just as you do me. I know you get tired. I know you get hungry. I know that you are susceptible to cognitive biases including the will to believe in a powerful father figure, because I've been there. I know that you have no more senses or faculties than I, and no access to any information not also available to me.

Hi,
You used many words to tell me nothing.

Again, my presupposition is legitimate. It is not a faith based position neither is it based on personal experience.

If there is compelling evidence to the contrary I'll be all ears.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Hi,
You used many words to tell me nothing.

Again, my presupposition is legitimate. It is not a faith based position neither is it based on personal experience.

If there is compelling evidence to the contrary I'll be all ears.

To whom is this addressed?

 

[nPeace]

I am totally sure also, but just for a different worldview. Now what?

Now, you keep examining to make sure that what you are sure of, is really accurate.
You didn't say what you are sure of though, and based on what. That's important, during a process of investigation.

 

[ppp]

That, my friend, is your subjective opinion except if you are able to verify that stance.

Be my guest...

What's to verify? His saying, "it was based on what *they accepted* as having been God doing things in the past." is true statement.

 

[Polymath257]

Well said.
According to the Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (1963, p. 660), Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: “Faith is the title deed of things hoped for.”

So, faith is like possessing a title deed - a guarantee, being absolutely sure of everything God has promised, even though we do not see them at present.
The solid evidence we have makes our conviction absolute.

But if you have a deed, and it turns out not to be valid, it is worthless. Just having a piece of paper that says you have a guarantee doesn't mean you actually have a guarantee.

The Greek word eʹleg·khos, rendered “evident demonstration,” conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case.

So how is it evident? Give *that* evidence as opposed to simply claiming it is evident.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Now, you keep examining to make sure that what you are sure of, is really accurate.
You didn't say what you are sure of though, and based on what. That's important, during a process of investigation.

Yeah, and I got a different result and I am as sure of that as you are sure of your result.
So what am I sure of? That I don't have any evidence in the end and I only have faith. But that faith is different than you, since you believe in one God and I believe in different God. Yours is religious and mine is philosophical.

 

[nPeace]

Yeah, and I got a different result and I am as sure of that as you are sure of your result.
So what am I sure of? That I don't have any evidence in the end and I only have faith. But that faith is different than you, since you believe in one God and I believe in different God. Yours is religious and mine is philosophical.

Well, there are all kinds of beliefs. Scientists have theirs also.
I am not here to change your beliefs, amd I don't think you are here to change mine.
I always say, when the final curtain falls, or the fat lady sings, those left standing will not have need to explain anything to anyone.

 

[Five Solas]

So what am I sure of? That I don't have any evidence in the end and I only have faith.

I can only place my faith and trust in things I have knowledge of. I can, for example, not believe in or trust a person I do not know.
Biblical, saving faith is based on knowledge and the trust based on prior knowledge.
Christians have, therefore, a reasonable faith - not blind faith.

 

[nPeace]

PS
@mikkel_the_dane I forgot to mention, some people don't want to admit that they have beliefs, they tent to try to put themselves above everyone else... Not referring to you.

 

[Five Solas]

Well, there are all kinds of beliefs.

Those beliefs are no more than ideas or opinions. It is not the same as having faith in God.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I can only place my faith and trust in things I have knowledge of. I can, for example, not believe in or trust a person I do not know.
Biblical, saving faith is based on knowledge and the trust based on prior knowledge.
Christians have, therefore, a reasonable faith - not blind faith.

Yeah, I get that. I do the same, just with a philosophical God.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Those beliefs are no more than ideas or opinions. It is not the same as having faith in God.

To you. I still do it differently.