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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
And I don't see much in your claims.

The fun thing about logic, is that I learn a lot about how some people do it by learning how not to do it. Read to the end, it is absurd beauty.
"All thinking is a process of identification and integration. Man perceives a blob of color; by integrating the evidence of his sight and his touch, he learns to identify it as a solid object; he learns to identify the object as a table; he learns that the table is made of wood; he learns that the wood consists of cells, that the cells consist of molecules, that the molecules consist of atoms. All through this process, the work of his mind consists of answers to a single question: What is it? His means to establish the truth of his answers is logic, and logic rests on the axiom that existence exists. Logic is the art of non-contradictory identification. A contradiction cannot exist. An atom is itself, and so is the universe; neither can contradict its own identity; nor can a part contradict the whole. No concept man forms is valid unless he integrates it without contradiction into the total sum of his knowledge. To arrive at a contradiction is to confess an error in one’s thinking; to maintain a contradiction is to abdicate one’s mind and to evict oneself from the realm of reality."
—Ayn Rand Lexicon
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You used many words to tell me nothing.

That's on you.

And it's not unexpected that you would simply blow it all off without any evidence that you even read it, much less understood it (I could give your answer to any post whatever it said, even without reading it). I addressed that phenomenon a few hours ago on this thread to InChrist.

my presupposition is legitimate. It is not a faith based position neither is it based on personal experience.

Your experience is not evidence of a god, meaning that your presupposition that you are experiencing one is faith-based. The argument in support of that was in the text you couldn't understand. You haven't tried to rebut it, nor to support your own position except with unevidenced claims that have no persuasive power with those who require supporting evidence before believing, so why would my position change?

If there is compelling evidence to the contrary I'll be all ears.

And I've already addressed this, too. If you're not going to look at what is written to you, why respond? Why should I? You have no argument, you talk about having evidence but offer none, and you ignore what is written to you before repeating yourself.

Hebrews 11:1 NIV. "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." It’s terrible to see how people use and abuse this verse without bothering to understand the context. Please refrain from quoting it if you are too lazy to understand the correct meaning of it.

Actually, it seems like it is you that doesn't understand the scriptures.

Theists claim that this book is too difficult to understand in order to try to disqualify dissenting opinion from skeptics, but it's the skeptics who understand it and its flaws, not the believer, who reads it through a faith-based confirmation bias that filters out the internal contradictions, moral and intellectual failings of an allegedly perfect deity, failed prophecy, and errors of science and history. Why would anybody be interested in what people committed to seeing the Bible as the word of God see when they look? We already know what it will be, whatever the words actually mean.

A literate, educated person has no difficulty understanding anything written in a language he is fluent in. I would have trouble understanding Chaucer in the original English, and wouldn't understand technical language in a field I'm unfamiliar with, but other kinds of books, not so much. One simply never see this kind of argument with any other text - "you don't understand the words even if you think you do."

That definition of faith is very close to my own: unjustified belief. You seem to think it means something else, likely because you want it to mean something else. You are arguing that faith based beliefs can be evidence based, and citing a scripture that doesn't support you, then claiming others don't understand what it means. Like I said, this is evidence to me that YOU don't understand what the words mean.

You and I are engaged in part of a larger conversation going on between Christians and atheists since atheists got a voice, which happened in our lifetimes with the rise of the Internet and the respectability of atheism as a tenable alternative to theism. This kind of thing rarely happened in the past, where at one time, it could result in the death of the skeptic. In my lifetime, the church hasn't had that power, but when I was born, atheists were so marginalized and demonized that they couldn't adopt, coach, teach, or serve on juries for being morally unfit, and there was virtually no recourse for such people except to silently accept that only theists were entitled to an opinion without having to pay a penalty.

That's all changed much to the chagrin of the church and its apologists, who can now be challenged, and who are now expected to defend their claims knowing that they can't.

Each example of biblical faith in this chapter demonstrates trust, based on what that person knew about how God acted in the past and the reassurance that God would act in the same way now or in the future. That is evidence-based faith!!!!

None of that is evidence that their faith was evidence based or that their beliefs were correct.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Different blind faiths... That took me by surprise. :)
So, would you say beliefs of scientists is another blind faith?


People see faith differently.
Religious people often think of faith as confidence based on a perceived degree of warrant while others who are more skeptical of religion tend to think of faith as simply belief without evidence.

If one believes something is true, based on evidence - very strong evidence, is this blind faith, in your view?

You are a good human. So do you want to learn the "worst" kind of doubt as per philosophy? You don't have to, you don't need it and you can have a good life without it.
If you say yes, then you will become as skeptic like me, if you follow it to the end. The evidence that there is no evidence. Or truth, proof or what you prefer.
But you really don't need to learn it. :) And yes, you can still be a Follower of Christ.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
or where the cancer simply goes into remission, like happens with some frequency.
I read a study on miracles at Lourdes. The rate of miraculous cures of cancer (approved by the Lourdes committee) is slightly lower than the rate of spontaneous remission in the general population.
Making the pilgrimage to Lourdes actually reduces your chance of being cured! (This kinda makes sense if one considers that the stress of the journey, expectation, etc may well put extra strain on a system already stressed to the limit with fighting the cancer. Patients would possibly be better off resting in familiar surroundings).
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Convenient or Jesus foretelling the events and attitudes of the future before He returns?
The world could’ve gone different but it didn’t, it’s going just like Jesus Christ said it would.
What “leaders” are you talking about?
Predicting that not everyone will agree with a new ideology is hardly "prescience". More like "stating the bleedin' obvious".
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I was talking about the leaders of the churches.

It's too easy to say that someone in the future is going to disagree with you. Well, duh.

But that is also a wonderful cover for getting people to not question your position too much. just say that anyone that questions you is evil and dishonest.

Given the number of ways confirmation bias is promoted, it's hard to take anything said past that seriously.
The same issue was covered nicely by Muhammad in the Quran. When Muslims questioned him why no one else seemed able to see the manifest truth of his message (after 12 years of prophethood in Mecca, there were only about 100 Muslims), he simply said that Allah had misguided them, set a seal on their hearts so they could not believe, even if they were warned.
As you said, how very convenient.
And confirmation bias would prevent them from then asking why on earth Allah would deliberately prevent people from seeing the truth.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
You are a good human. So do you want to learn the "worst" kind of doubt as per philosophy? You don't have to, you don't need it and you can have a good life without it.
If you say yes, then you will become as skeptic like me, if you follow it to the end. The evidence that there is no evidence. Or truth, proof or what you prefer.
But you really don't need to learn it. :) And yes, you can still be a Follower of Christ.
Not sure if I would describe people who think that things like babies with cancer are a result of the sins of the parents "a good human".
 
Predicting that not everyone will agree with a new ideology is hardly "prescience". More like "stating the bleedin' obvious".
That’s not quite what Jesus said in Matthew 24 or this:
“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:1-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Are you saying this is the obvious direction every society would go? Why not Utopia?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
So God is alive to you? That would make an interesting discussion, as God has zero of the criteria for life (takes nutrition, reproduces, grows and develops, self-repair, etc.), but lets overlook that and go right to the obvious chase that it seems you didn't see coming: You just named an example of life that was not the result of life according to your definition of life.
My definition of life? You mean the common one?
life
līf
noun
  1. The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
That's too small for an all powerful entity. An all powerful being is beyond the necessity to be subject to the environment because he is not dependent on the environment for survival. But he is certainly alive as in having an intellect and the ability to reproduce. You need to look outside your limited science box to find any complete answers.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
So are you claiming that god and something else had sex, and the first life on earth was their baby?
Or are you claiming that god had the ability to indirectly and remotely cause life to start where there was previously no life?
No need for something else or sex.
God fills the entire universe. Certainly he can produce life from his own energy anywhere.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm glad you recognize that they have no support.

I was not talking about the scientific proposals, which do have support, but rather the innumerable untestable imaginings that can be created once one allows for supernatural beings.

Abiogenesis has support, whether you like it or not. It is not a complete subject since the key question is still open, but it does have a lot of support. And it certainly has much more support than anything proposing a supernatural intervention that produces life from a non-chemical, non-biological means.
 
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