Sheldon
Veteran Member
Seedless grapes..
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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?
- Thread starter an anarchist
- Start date
Seedless grapes..
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
What does my being female have to do with anything???
ElishaElijah
Return
I thought the other member called you a he but maybe he meant someone else
joelr
Well-Known Member
These are verses from the religions that influenced Judaism? You said Jesus was uncreated?
The Persians had already said that about their God -
"proclaimed Ahura Mazda to be the one uncreated God, "
You used the John passage where it says the word became flesh. That is taken from Greek Platonic theology -
"which the word becomes flesh, a Platonic concept."
Then you mentioned followers getting resurrected into a new body. This was a Persain myth and the Hebrews borrowed it sometime during the Persian period because the same myth shows up in the NT as Revelations.
"This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked,......
which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise.""
Clearly the same myths, then used by Christianity?
What do you mean "not even close" The word becomes flesh is literally the SAME WORDS?????
The Persian Revelation is the same basic story?
What are you talking about? Yes Jesus was created just like Osirus and Neo, they are fictional characters in a story?
I do not care about your interpretation of theology because that is all fantasy? You are just saying words that have nothing to do with an actual response?
Yes, everyone else's religion is a "false God". To you everyone not Yahweh is a "false God". To a Hindu your God is a "false God". To a Muslim your God is real but you messed up the message.
What I am showing with these sources are the places the myths in Christianity came from. I do not care which myth you choose to believe is true? You haven't answered any points made except to basically say "well I believe it". Ok? Other people believe Vishnu is the creator God? It's all myth.
You have to demonstrate something is real, not just continue to say how much you believe it. Your beliefs are known. It's now known that you cannot justify your beliefs or provide evidence or that it's at all rational or logical to believe in these myths.
[/QUOTE]
QUOTE="ElishaElijah, post: 7715861, member: 71078"]
Doesn’t sound like you’ve ever read or understood the Bible, neither has your source. Why would you take someone else’s ideas and interpretations instead of checking them for yourself.[/QUOTE]
Wrong again. I was Christian, am familiar with much of the apologetics from C.S. Lewis to modern attempts by Licona, Habermas and am familiar with the theologians like Aquinas and others and where they borrowed their theology from that they used for Yahweh.
But I'm also familiar with the historical and archaeological aspects. Clearly you are not.
Here you criticize except you didn't know that "the word became flesh" was previously a theology Plato wrote for something else or have any idea that all of Christianity is borrowed mythology?
As if scripture is so hard to interpret? But one doesn't need a theology degree to see that savior demigods who gets the followers into heaven is a rip-off of older Greek myths. As is heaven, souls, I just read a paper explaining baptism and the eucharist were definitely taken from Greek mythology and so on.
I understand what most of the theology means. What I am pointing out above is that what you posted isn't original. You posted it as if John made it up. But he didn't, it's borrowings from older stories. Almost all of it is borrowings from other religions.
The NT was written using the OT as a source so it made sure to address all the covenants.
All savior demigods do just that . They provide salvation to followers of the deity. Judaism was obsessed with this "sin-force" people seemed to have and the Jewish version of the dying/rising savior is that his death forgives sin.
The OT is a myth. There is no sky-God worried about sin and we do not need Greek saviors to perform magic blood atonement sacrifice. This happened right before passover, Jesus blood is much more magical than lambs and bulls so no more annual passover or yom kippur will be needed.
This is ridiculous mythology. Every religion back then sacrificed animals for their God to get anything done and they all had saviors. Fiction.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Sorry, Williams is a NT scholar. Let's see what an actual expert is ancient Hebrew has to say.
Dr Josh Bowen an Assyriologist who specializes in the language says slavery is 100% supported.
Foreign Chattel Slaves in the Bible: Leviticus 25:44-46
Here is a debate with Josh Bowen and Matt Dilllahunty vs 2 apologists
Bowen schools them on the language several times.
It's basically what the English translation says. People are owned as property.
"Achuza" is property and is used in context of ownership of people. Bowen applies proper lexicography to the discussion.
joelr
Well-Known Member
In this video Carrier goes through a recent conversation Ehrman had on a podcast about mythicism and other issues.
Ehrman is a good scholar but when it comes to this one issue he's acting weird and not making sense and Carrier is showing his errors.
Ehrmans book How Jesus Became God is really good. But his comments on mythicism are bizarre and he's avoiding updating himself on the scholarship. His career is based on historicity (Jesus was a man mythicized in the Gospel stories) so it might be weird for him to look at the issue honestly?
Carrier makes some good points here.
ElishaElijah
Return
That’s the deception, first of all, you were not ever a Christian if you’re saying Jesus is a myth. A Christian is someone who has repented of their sin, received the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ. Been born again of the Holy Spirit. This is God’s Spirit and sets people apart, He comes from God and lives in me and all believers. That’s the difference. We received from God, something you know nothing about.
You have theories, we have this treasure in jars of clay as the Bible says. The Holy Spirit bears witness of God
and confirms we are His.
So, no you don’t have a clue, you’ve read but lack
understanding.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Peter Williams
Qualifications:
M.A. (Cantab); M.Phil. (Cantab); Ph.D. (Cantab).
History:
Senior Lecturer in New Testament, University of Aberdeen, 2005-2007
Lecturer in New Testament, University of Aberdeen, 2003-2005
Research Fellow in Old Testament, Tyndale House, Cambridge, 1998-2003
Affiliated Lecturer in Hebrew and Aramaic, Faculty of Oriental Studies, University of Cambridge, 1998-2003
Research Assistant, the Semantics of Ancient Hebrew Database Project, Faculty of Divinity, University of Cambridge, 1997-1998
Currently:
Principal, Tyndale House, Cambridge
Josh Bowen?
An Assyriologist
ElishaElijah
Return
The New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. The Holy Spirit was showing us how Jesus fulfilled all that was written about Him. God had been showing the prophets what He was going to do in the future, the Jews were looking for Him but many didn’t recognize Him when He came
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yeah, that is your belief. I have a different one.
ElishaElijah
Return
That’s what the Bible says and shows. Not a belief to say exactly what the Bible teaches and means. Whether you accept or trust what the Bible says and teaches is an entirely different matter.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Yeah, and your belief about what the Bible teaches and means, is not really a belief. I do get that you believe that.
ElishaElijah
Return
Clear what the Bible says:
“Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.”
I Peter 1:10-12 NKJV
“And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. So they said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.’ ””
Matthew 2:4-6 NKJV
“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’”
Acts 2:1-2, 14-21 NKJV
And it continues today, God has told us ahead of time and prophecy is being fulfilled now as we approach the return of Jesus Christ.
Whether you want to believe the Scriptures or not is up to you but at least be honest about what it actually says and means.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Oh I see. Ah, I don't really mind. But thanks!
Sheldon
Veteran Member
That's nonsense, and a no true Scotsman fallacy.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
No true Scotsman fallacy.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
I don't believe you, but then I never believe unevidenced assertions as a matter of course.
What is written about Jesus is pure hearsay, beyond the possibility he existed and was crucified nothing is known.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Quote a fact from the bible that is independently verifiable by objective evidence, one that remotely evidences anything supernatural or any deity? Prophesy if it could be verified would be nothing more than something inexplicable, but it would need to:
1. Substantiate independently beyond any reasonable or rational doubt that a very specific claim were made.
2. That later this claim came true unequivocally, and not in any way open to subjective interpretation.
If you can do that you've found something Christianity has missed up until now, and of course it would still only be a remarkable but ultimately inexplicable event.
ElishaElijah
Return
You reap what you sow
ElishaElijah
Return
I’m not even talking about evidence at this point. It’s about what does the Bible actually say and teach? I haven’t found any skeptic, atheist or unbeliever who knows, at least not yet on this Forum.