There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[joelr]

I never said a real Christian couldn’t leave the faith.
I said the people here on RF that said they were Christians and now are not haven’t demonstrated they were ever Christians.
Problem is you refuse to listen or comprehend what people are saying.

Sorry, "fallen away" doesn't mean you actually think Yahweh and Jesus are real but you don't care. That isn't even a thing? You don't leave a religion if you think the God is real? You leave a religion when you realize it's just man-made stories.

Your points are getting more and more outlandish? The argument about who is a Christian is over. Christianity.org has presented a common definition. Your weird esoteric
'God touched me" is pure nonsense and you have no authority to say who is or isn't a Christian. In fact you sound like a teenager.
Christians leave the religion. Deal with it.
Your claim that they "were not Christians" is just that . Another baseless claim. It's the exact definition of No True Scotsman Fallacy.

I did comprehend what you said. I'm just not accepting your outlandish judgments about who is a Christian. I thought you understood scripture? Yet you cannot stop judging people who were honest Christians? Terrible?

 

[joelr]

Yes I have, Jesus was not created and there is no dual creation theory. That’s not what the Bible teaches.

Sorry, wrong again. You said God was uncreated, God or Jesus.
I pointed out that the Persian God already had that myth attached to it's theology in text going back to around 1600B.C


God

t Zoroaster went much further, and in a startling departure from accepted beliefs proclaimed Ahura Mazda to be the one uncreated God, existing eternally, and Creator of all else that is good, including all other beneficent divinities.


One of many theologies the Hebrews picked up along the way when creating their fictive version of Gods and demigods.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sorry, "fallen away" doesn't mean you actually think Yahweh and Jesus are real but you don't care. That isn't even a thing? You don't leave a religion if you think the God is real? You leave a religion when you realize it's just man-made stories.

Your points are getting more and more outlandish? The argument about who is a Christian is over. Christianity.org has presented a common definition. Your weird esoteric
'God touched me" is pure nonsense and you have no authority to say who is or isn't a Christian. In fact you sound like a teenager.
Christians leave the religion. Deal with it.
Your claim that they "were not Christians" is just that . Another baseless claim. It's the exact definition of No True Scotsman Fallacy.

I go by what the Bible says teaches not someone else’s definition. Jesus was clear on this. Sorry you’re reducing yourself to personal attacks now but the subject is “What does the Bible actually say and teach”? This seems to escape you and you don’t know. And yes people left Jesus even though they knew He was the Messiah ex. The rich man.

“As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not defraud; honor your father and mother.” He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these from my youth.” Looking at him, Jesus loved him and said to him, “You lack one thing: Go, sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” But he was dismayed by this demand, and he went away grieving, because he had many possessions.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:17-22‬ ‭CSB‬‬
John 3 explains why people don’t come to Jesus, the light as well:
“This is the judgment: The light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed. But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭CSB‬‬

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And if you’re wrong? Because you don’t know for sure, then what?

To quote Prof Dawkins: "What if I'm wrong?? What if YOU'RE wrong about the Great JuJu at the bottom of the sea?!?"


There's literally an infinite set of unfalsifiable things you can come up with that can't be shown wrong or correct. To ask "what if you're wrong" about your preferred single unfalsifiable thing, which most likely you only believe in by sheer geographic accident, is not really worth a second of thought.
Just like you won't spend a second worrying about perhaps being wrong about the great juju at the bottom of the sea.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I go by what the Bible says teaches not someone else’s definition. Jesus was clear on this. Sorry you’re reducing yourself to personal attacks now but the subject is “What does the Bible actually say and teach”? This seems to escape you and you don’t know. And yes people left Jesus even though they knew He was the Messiah ex. The rich man.

“As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not defraud; honor your father and mother.” He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these from my youth.” Looking at him, Jesus loved him and said to him, “You lack one thing: Go, sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” But he was dismayed by this demand, and he went away grieving, because he had many possessions.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:17-22‬ ‭CSB‬‬
John 3 explains why people don’t come to Jesus, the light as well:
“This is the judgment: The light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed. But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭CSB‬‬

Do Christians leave Christianity? I never said they didn’t but you keep saying deal with it, don’t you comprehend this?
Some people who claim they were Christian really were never Christians, do you know the difference? Obviously not

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You missed the whole point, listen closely and skip your diatribe that is off target…
There are people who have tasted of the Lord and may have been true Christians, born again and left who would be apostates. I don’t have a problem at all acknowledging that, these people would not and could not now say Jesus Christ is a myth but they would say I will not have Jesus rule over me and they have turned away to live for themselves.
I have not heard on this forum any evidence from skeptics or atheists who say they were a Christian that in fact, they meet the criteria of the Bible that they were actually born again by their testimonies.
Then on the other hand you take the testimonies of people like Ehrman by what they say without any objective evidence. How do you know he was born again, only God can do that work, so are you acknowledging this is evidence for God now? Good, I’m glad and you don’t need any objective evidence for him being born again in this case.
Now getting back to “What the Bible teaches”, see you really don’t know, you only present one side, a view about how you think the Bible originated but have no clue what it says and means or teaches. Constantly misinterpreting the Bible.

“For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, who shared in the Holy Spirit, who tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, and who have fallen away. This is because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding him up to contempt. For the ground that drinks the rain that often falls on it and that produces vegetation useful to those for whom it is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and at the end will be burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭CSB‬‬

This is about people who have been a Christian and are not, the people on this forum so far have not demonstrated this, but only have gone to a church, forced, coerced religious activities.

Gigantic no-true-scottsman

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I never said a real Christian couldn’t leave the faith.
I said the people here on RF that said they were Christians and now are not haven’t demonstrated they were ever Christians.
Problem is you refuse to listen or comprehend what people are saying.

How in the world could they demonstrate to you on a forum what they believed years ago?

Either you take their word for it or call them liars.
Those seem your only two options.

 

[ElishaElijah]

To quote Prof Dawkins: "What if I'm wrong?? What if YOU'RE wrong about the Great JuJu at the bottom of the sea?!?"


There's literally an infinite set of unfalsifiable things you can come up with that can't be shown wrong or correct. To ask "what if you're wrong" about your preferred single unfalsifiable thing, which most likely you only believe in by sheer geographic accident, is not really worth a second of thought.
Just like you won't spend a second worrying about perhaps being wrong about the great juju at the bottom of the sea.

Here are a couple of testimonies to that:
The Tragic Death of Voltaire the Atheist | Paw Creek Ministries

 

[ElishaElijah]

How in the world could they demonstrate to you on a forum what they believed years ago?

Either you take their word for it or call them liars.
Those seem your only two options.

Just going on what they communicate, it’s really not that hard to see.

 

[joelr]

I go by what the Bible says teaches not someone else’s definition. Jesus was clear on this. Sorry you’re reducing yourself to personal attacks now but the subject is “What does the Bible actually say and teach”? This seems to escape you and you don’t know. And yes people left Jesus even though they knew He was the Messiah ex. The rich man.‬‬

Your source for realistic behavior is fiction? In the Bible saints also rise from their grave, magical things happen often, Yahweh rides around on a pillar of smoke and fire, pigs get posessed by the devil, Jesus floats to heaven and a giant shining angel comes down. Exactly none of this ever happened in real life. Oh, the sun went out.
Yes, in a fictive story people leave Gods, knowing they are Gods. It happens to Lord Krishna, Vishnu, Zeus and many others.
In real life people leave religions because they realized they were not true. I have heard many conversion stories. No one EVER said, I know Jesus is real but I quit Christianity.
Priests have quit, Pastors have quit. They were Christians.

“As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not defraud; honor your father and mother.” He said to him, “Teacher, I have kept all these from my youth.” Looking at him, Jesus loved him and said to him, “You lack one thing: Go, sell all you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” But he was dismayed by this demand, and he went away grieving, because he had many possessions.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:17-22‬ ‭CSB‬‬‬‬

Your example is a parable? The rich man parable? Mark TOLD YOU the entire gospel is a parable by having Jesus say he teaches in parables. But this isn't literal. It's supposed to be a commentary that wealth can interfere with salvation. Peter does do this. To use it as a literal example shows you really don't understand this myth at all?

John 3 explains why people don’t come to Jesus, the light as well:
“This is the judgment: The light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed. But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:19-21‬ ‭CSB‬‬

That was pointless? Atheists (that I know) don't "avoid the light" because of dark deeds? They are the best people I know, compassionate, giving, intelligent. They don't believe in simplistic Greek savior myths? They are educated enough to know that stuff isn't real. There is no afterlife no matter how hard you wish there is. That myth is played out.
That's a funny apologetic. "You want to sin so you are an atheist".........Uh, no, there is no evidence whatsoever for any religious dogma/theology or anything supernatural. And I just want to live a simple life and do my intellectual and physical hobbies and have good relationships and be a good person?

 

[joelr]

Do Christians leave Christianity? I never said they didn’t but you keep saying deal with it, don’t you comprehend this?
Some people who claim they were Christian really were never Christians, do you know the difference? Obviously not

And the person who gets to say who is or isn't a Christian is not you.
If a person believes they are a Christian. Then if they don't they leave. No God ever reveals himself to you because that is a fictive story. Your brain releases endorphins just like in Islam, Hinduism and all the others who have all sorts of personal experience stories.

People who are life long Christians (and who are grown ups) and still in the faith, NEVER say there is some experience where you forever know God is real. Real Christians have been speaking about this for ever. All Christains encounter crisis of faith, at all levels. Cardinals, Popes, Pastors. This is a known thing. Especially after loss of a loved one or difficult time. Usually they endure through it. But this is a well known thing.
Others decide to take an honest look at the evidence to be able to fully support their faith and realize there isn't any good evidence.
You sound like a young college student recently indoctrinated into a born again cult.
Mature apologists like Mike Licona, Gary Habermas and Johnathan Sheffield would never say outlandish crank like this.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And the person who gets to say who is or isn't a Christian is not you.

The Bible describes the criteria, so you just need to read and understand that? It’s not that hard so if you don’t bother to read the Bible on that subject you still won’t know.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Your source for realistic behavior is fiction? In the Bible saints also rise from their grave, magical things happen often, Yahweh rides around on a pillar of smoke and fire, pigs get posessed by the devil, Jesus floats to heaven and a giant shining angel comes down. Exactly none of this ever happened in real life. Oh, the sun went out.
Yes, in a fictive story people leave Gods, knowing they are Gods. It happens to Lord Krishna, Vishnu, Zeus and many others.
In real life people leave religions because they realized they were not true. I have heard many conversion stories. No one EVER said, I know Jesus is real but I quit Christianity.
Priests have quit, Pastors have quit. They were Christians.







Your example is a parable? The rich man parable? Mark TOLD YOU the entire gospel is a parable by having Jesus say he teaches in parables. But this isn't literal. It's supposed to be a commentary that wealth can interfere with salvation. Peter does do this. To use it as a literal example shows you really don't understand this myth at all?



That was pointless? Atheists (that I know) don't "avoid the light" because of dark deeds? They are the best people I know, compassionate, giving, intelligent. They don't believe in simplistic Greek savior myths? They are educated enough to know that stuff isn't real. There is no afterlife no matter how hard you wish there is. That myth is played out.
That's a funny apologetic. "You want to sin so you are an atheist".........Uh, no, there is no evidence whatsoever for any religious dogma/theology or anything supernatural. And I just want to live a simple life and do my intellectual and physical hobbies and have good relationships and be a good person?

Since Jesus said that it will be interesting to see the motives when all that is exposed.

 

[joelr]

Here are a couple of testimonies to that:
The Tragic Death of Voltaire the Atheist | Paw Creek Ministries

Your source is an apologetic book? Perfect, yet another example of religion bending the truth. See a trend yet?
Let's see what a historical site says:

10. He continued causing controversy even in death.
Voltaire died in Paris in 1778, just a few months after returning to the city for the first time in 28 years to oversee the production of one of his plays. Over the last few days of his life, Catholic Church officials repeatedly visited Voltaire—a lifelong deist who was often critical of organized religion—in the hope of persuading him to retract his opinions and make a deathbed confession. The great writer was unmoved, and supposedly brushed off the priests by saying, “let me die in peace.” His refusal meant that he was officially denied a Christian burial, but his friends and family managed to arrange a secret interment in the Champagne region of France before the order became official.

 

[joelr]

The Bible describes the criteria, so you just need to read and understand that? It’s not that hard so if you don’t bother to read the Bible on that subject you still won’t know.

There are no Christians in the Bible?

Criteria for being a follower is belief, and cast out devils


These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils. Mark 16:17

Also -

1. 
   baptize

1. 
   Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38
   1. Work hard for Jesus.
      Be ... abounding in the work of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:58
      1. 
         
         Curse those who don't love Jesus.

1. 
   If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema. 1 Corinthians 16:22

1. Force all of your thoughts to obey Jesus.
   (Don't be a free thinker.)Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:5

1. If you're going to glory, glory in Jesus.
   He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 2 Corinthians 10:17

1. Examine yourself to see if Jesus is in you.
   (If he's not, you're a reprobate.)Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinthians 13:5

1. Be free with Jesus.
   Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Galatians 5:1

1. Have the same mind as Jesus.
   Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. Philippians 2:5

1. Salute every saint in Christ Jesus.
   Salute every saint in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:21

1. Believe on the name of God's son, Jesus Christ.
   This is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 3:23

1. Abide in Jesus.
   Abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 1 John 2:28

1. Don't refuse Jesus.
   And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. Hebrews 12:24-25

1. Remember that Jesus of David's seed was raised from the dead.
   (According to the "gospel" of the author of 2 Timothy.)Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel. 2 Timothy 2:8

1. Do everything in the name of Jesus.
   Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus. Colossians 3:17

That's it. People who claim to be Christians are Christians, the end.

 

[joelr]

Since Jesus said that it will be interesting to see the motives when all that is exposed.

No a story said that. I'll stick with the opinion of Christian Scholarship, we don't know what Jesus said.
Not interested in your fantasy world.


Genre and historical reliability
The majority view among critical scholars is that the authors of Matthew and Luke have based their narratives on Mark's gospel, editing him to suit their own ends, and the contradictions and discrepancies between these three and John make it impossible to accept both traditions as equally reliable.[13] In addition, the gospels we read today have been edited and corrupted over time, leading Origen to complain in the 3rd century that "the differences among manuscripts have become great, ... [because copyists] either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please".[47] Most of these are insignificant, but many are significant,[48] an example being Matthew 1:18, altered to imply the pre-existence of Jesus.[49] For these reasons modern scholars are cautious of relying on the gospels uncritically,




Charles H. Talbert agrees that the gospels should be grouped with the Graeco-Roman biographies, but adds that such biographies included an element of mythology, and that the synoptic gospels also included elements of mythology.[2] E.P. Sanders states that "these Gospels were written with the intention of glorifying Jesus and are not strictly biographical in nature."[19] Ingrid Maisch and Anton Vögtle writing for Karl Rahner in his encyclopedia of theological terms indicate that the gospels were written primarily as theological, not historical items.[3

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Just going on what they communicate, it’s really not that hard to see.

It's not hard to see what?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Here are a couple of testimonies to that:
The Tragic Death of Voltaire the Atheist | Paw Creek Ministries

Do you have a point?
How is this relevant to what you are responding to?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Bible describes the criteria, so you just need to read and understand that? It’s not that hard so if you don’t bother to read the Bible on that subject you still won’t know.

Those christians that in your opinion aren't "real christians", read the same bible and obviously they think they do meet the criteria.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that I can find christians reading that same bible who'll then use those same criteria to argue that YOU aren't a "real christian".

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Those christians that in your opinion aren't "real christians", read the same bible and obviously they think they do meet the criteria.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that I can find christians reading that same bible who'll then use those same criteria to argue that YOU aren't a "real christian".

And those of us, who leave to God, if She exists, to figure that out.