There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[ElishaElijah]

I can. The problem is that you will reject my interpretation. And you seem to think that you know better than the majority of Christians without any proper education in the matter at all.

You can but won’t, does Ephesians 2 mean that Heaven is a gift or can you earn your way to Heaven by works. What does it say?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You can but won’t, does Ephesians 2 mean that Heaven is a gift or can you earn your way to Heaven by works. What does it say?

As usual you are only concentrating on small parts of verses rather than the entire meaning of the Jesus message. You are correct that salvation is not by "works". But the Bible also tells us that the "saved" will be known by their actions. For example Matthew 7 16.

So a person can claim to be "saved" all day long, but if one does not follow the teachings of Jesus then those claims ring rather hollow. Focusing on "being born again" and ignoring how one should act if one is a Christian tells others that that person's Christianity exists only in that person's mouth.

 

[ElishaElijah]

As usual you are only concentrating on small parts of verses rather than the entire meaning of the Jesus message. You are correct that salvation is not by "works". But the Bible also tells us that the "saved" will be known by their actions. For example Matthew 7 16.

So a person can claim to be "saved" all day long, but if one does not follow the teachings of Jesus then those claims ring rather hollow. Focusing on "being born again" and ignoring how one should act if one is a Christian tells others that that person's Christianity exists only in that person's mouth.

And then the other part after Heaven being a gift is:
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
But sounds like we agree with what the Scripture says and means, why is that so hard?

 

[BrightShadow]

I’ve been reading through a couple of threads, and I see that it is said that there is no evidence for a god, it’s an unfalsifiable idea. We all agree on this? If you don’t, care to explain the evidence there is for god?
I’m in agreement. I used to believe my personal experiences to be subjective evidence for god, but I know now that’s not the case. I am not a theist anymore because I recognize I was a Christian thanks almost completely to my environment. That’s why I believed. I was brought up in it. Wasn’t because of any proof or anything,
So, theists, why do you believe? Is it mainly because of your environment and geographical location? There is no proof for god (right?), so what logically keeps you believing? Or is logic not supposed to be a factor when it comes to faith? Is it too jarring, the idea of leaving the comfort that religion and belief in a god brings?
I am curious about personal evaluations on why you believe. It can’t be because of logic, as there is no proof of god, right?

No proof of existence is not proof of non existence!
Please consider the following scenario -
What if we don't deserve God's direct presence? What if we already have a history with God in God's direct presence - where we (in our soul form) insulted God somehow? What if God decided to banish us and instead of expunging us from the face of the universe - God decided to send us to a detention center with walls surrounding us that is preventing us from seeing God's kingdom? What if our memory is erased of that and we are given a 2nd chance? What if - God occasionally sent us some messengers to give us some basic information that would help some of us - find our path to salvation and a way to redeem ourselves. What if we are required to believe in his authority just by witnessing the wonders of his creation? What if God wanted to show his angels that we are still capable to lead a righteous life?
In such a scenario - should we prove God wrong and fail him again?

N.B. I do not believe in any human God (aka Jesus). IMO it is illogical for a God to come down in human form and erase sins!

 

[Sheldon]

All your comment proves is you don’t know anything, congratulations your life is just a figment of your imagination, well done.

I'm not the one resorting to ad hominem fallacies.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
The bible is filled with errant nonsense, and open to subjective interpretation, and thus not a reliable source. If it were it could hardly have produced 45k varyingly different sects and denominations. We also have no idea what Jesus may or may not have said, since the biblical accounts are pure hearsay.

Doesn’t mean a thing in the context of what the Bible actually teaches.

Of course it does, don't be silly.

 

[Sheldon]

You can say that all day long but without naming the verse and demonstrating that it’s all talk. How about you take the verse in 1 John 2: 12-23, pretty clear teaching.
Or this:
“Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Or this:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

If it were a reliable source as you claimed, then it would hardly have resulted in 45k varyingly different sects and denominations. The gospels are pure hearsay anyway, we have no way of knowing if Jesus even said one word assigned him.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You said you understand the Scriptures better, that you believe a person is a Christian based on what they say, that you can understand the Scriptures without the Holy Spirit to teach you. The Bible disagrees with you

It doesn't matter to me that the Bible disagrees with me. I told you that I define Christian for myself, not the Bible.

If someone says they are a Christian then it’s tested according to the Bible

No need. They've already passed the test by saying that.

Speaking of tests, here's a little quiz I made. Do you think you can get all 12? Answers will follow after you've taken the test:

[1] Is mankind saved by works or faith?
[2] What were Jesus' very last words on the cross?
[3] Is it possible for men to be righteous?
[4] Has man seen God?
[5] Are all words from God true?
[6] Does God grow weary or tired?
[7] How did Jesus answer the Sanhedrin when it asked if he was messiah?
[8] What was the precise wording on the cross (English translation acceptable)?
[9] Was Jesus taken by Satan to the temple or mountain first?
[10] What number of blind men received their sight on the road from Jericho?
[11] Is God content with his works?
[12] Is God perfect, or does he make mistakes that he regrets?
​

does Ephesians 2 mean that Heaven is a gift or can you earn your way to Heaven by works.

If you want the works scriptures, you'll need to look in other parts of the book. Try this if you'd like a different belief.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." - James 2:24

You get your choice when there are contradictory scriptures and that's not a red flag for you.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It doesn't matter to me that the Bible disagrees with me. I told you that I define Christian for myself, not the Bible.

If that’s your view then you already disqualified yourself as a person who can interpret scripture because you will say whatever you want to.

And James faith without works is dead isn’t a contradiction.

Do you believe everyone who feeds the poor will be able to earn a place in Heaven? How good do you have to be? How many good works will earn that spot? Or is it a gift?

 

[Subduction Zone]

And then the other part after Heaven being a gift is:
“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
But sounds like we agree with what the Scripture says and means, why is that so hard?

We will agree in places. But there are parts of the Bible that we know to be false, if read literally. Luckily for you there are not key parts, you can still believe in Jesus without Genesis and Exodus.

 

[joelr]

You really are quite delusional. Did you come up with this by yourself or did you get help from someone without a body that wants to use yours?
Already posted how God delivered me from Drugs,
Alcohol, sexual sins, every single addiction.

I don't remember that I wrote this so you need some context with it, I don't see it in any posts? I don't deny religion helps people? Every religion, Islam helps people. You can find conversion stories of life altering proportions. Scientology does all those things, so does AA. And therapy. But you haven't given evidence that a God helped you with anything. Rehab and meetings also get people off drugs. In this case your belief in something helped you.

"
Islam provided him with a different viewpoint about life, and gave him direction, and made him value his health and life. He hasn’t drunk since he took his shahadah, and is still in his opiate addiction recovery program and taking medications, and going through counseling to help overcome it.

Allah’s grace and mercy helped him maintain his sobriety fairly easily. He says that drugs and alcohol just simply became revolting to him as if the desire was completely erased from his mind.

When you submit yourself to the mercy of Allah, and seek to help yourself, you will find that Allah will provide you with what you need to make it out of addiction. Avoiding bars and alcohol sections of stores, and friends that indulge in drinking is critical in overcoming this addiction.
Inspiring Stories of Reverts Freed from Addiction | About Islam

Then my sins were forgiven by Jesus Christ and I received His Spirit and Eternal Life. I have power over the things that had me in bondage, even the fear of death. I have a clear conscience, I have great promises from God and a good inheritance. So yeah I have hope and strength for this life and the next.
What do you have?

You just listed a bunch of fictional things? Those are make believe. Jesus is a Greek demigod savior. A theistic God is not real. The idea of it all inspired you. Your claims are no different than Muslims who "know" they will be in paradise with Allah? If made up stories give you strength then great. But you put it like it's a competition which is weird?

 

[joelr]

I don't believe it is an ad populum argument. It is an argument for repeatability. If one person makes a claim, he could be daffy but millions of claims accrues credibility.

No it doesn't? There are literally billions of Muslims? Billions of Hindu? From a Christian perspective they are completely wrong. So are Mormons and there are millions of them. They also use the same argument for credibility, their revelations are the real ones. No good evidence, just claims and stories. Your argument is "but mine is the real version..". No, they are all stories, none are real.

 

[joelr]

You said you understand the Scriptures better, that you believe a person is a Christian based on what they say, that you can understand the Scriptures without the Holy Spirit to teach you. The Bible disagrees with you:
“I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake. I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, Because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, Because you have known the Father. I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one. Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever. Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭2:12-23‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

All of the mystery cults had saviors and everyone was calling each other false messiahs. More evidence this was the popular mythology of the day. Every savior cult probably claimed "he who disbelieves our version is the anti-savior." In the 2nd century the Gnostic sects were calling other Christians antiichrist and heretics. This canon (not the original) is just the one that ended up being used. John thought the end times were coming soon. Didn't happen. Because it's a myth that started with Persia.

But you really have no idea what you are talking about. The Bible disagrees with you as well. First this doesn't say anything about who is or isn't a Christian? That term isn't ever used and there are hundreds of other passages saying ways to be saved. You are just cherry-picking one. I posted dozens of ways to be saved.

1. Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. -- Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13

There you go. I asked a Christian I know, they claim the holy spirit accepts this as a way to be Christian.

 

[joelr]

You can say that all day long but without naming the verse and demonstrating that it’s all talk. How about you take the verse in 1 John 2: 12-23, pretty clear teaching.
Or this:
“Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
Or this:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Let's see then, saved by faith and not works? Ok.
Well the Bible doesn't agree with the Bible.

Salvation is not by faith alone.
For you render to each one according to his works. Psalm 62:12
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin. Proverbs 10:16

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14

I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:10

When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. Ezekiel 18:27

I will judge you ... every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 18:30

Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matthew 12:37

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16:27

If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-46

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Luke 10:26-28

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:29

Who will render to each one according to his deeds.... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. Romans 2:6, 13

For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:15

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-25

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. 1 Peter 1:17

I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:23

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14



Then the Bible disagrees with the Bible again???

Salvation is by faith alone.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:18, 36

Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:30-31

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16-17

A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:13

Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16

The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith. Galatians 3:11-12

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9



This one literally says NOT OF WORKS? Yet other passages make it clear works are important.
So it's official, the Bible has no idea. It's one big contradiction.

 

[joelr]

Are you saying that you cannot look at those verses for yourself and determine what they mean? That’s too difficult, yet you claimed to know the Bible better than me.

Yup. See now these say that you just believe and you are saved.

1. Believe on Jesus.
2. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life. -- John 3:36
3. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. --John 6:47
4. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. -- Acts 16:31

 

[samtonga43]

Yup. See now these say that you just believe and you are saved.

1. Believe on Jesus.
2. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life. -- John 3:36
3. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. --John 6:47
4. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. -- Acts 16:31

Cherry picking. And try the ESV, reading in context.
I can assure you that when I was being drawn to Christ it was not about 'just' believing. My conversion from atheism was not an easy process. Easy believism? Certainly not.

What is “easy-believism”?

 

[samtonga43]

Let's see then, saved by faith and not works? Ok.
Well the Bible doesn't agree with the Bible.

Salvation is not by faith alone.
For you render to each one according to his works. Psalm 62:12
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin. Proverbs 10:16

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14

I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:10

When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. Ezekiel 18:27

I will judge you ... every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 18:30

Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matthew 12:37

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16:27

If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-46

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Luke 10:26-28

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:29

Who will render to each one according to his deeds.... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. Romans 2:6, 13

For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:15

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14

Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-25

The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. 1 Peter 1:17

I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:23

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14



Then the Bible disagrees with the Bible again???

Salvation is by faith alone.
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already .... He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:18, 36

Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Acts 16:30-31

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God salvation to every one that believeth.... As it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:16-17

A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:28

For the promise ... was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:13

Therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1

If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16

The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith. Galatians 3:11-12

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

This one literally says NOT OF WORKS? Yet other passages make it clear works are important.
So it's official, the Bible has no idea. It's one big contradiction.

LOL!! It is to you, because you seem to be unable to read in context. Try exegesis; I think this will help you.

Exegesis tries to listen to the text, and let meaning come from the text itself in its original, historical context.
Eisegesis brings meaning to the text, and does not concern itself with the original historical context of a biblical passage.

Exegesis Versus Eisegesis | SAGU

 

[samtonga43]

1. Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. -- Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13

Cherry picking.
Read the whole of Romans 10 in the language of today (eg ESV). Get the whole picture.

 

[samtonga43]

No it doesn't? There are literally billions of Muslims? Billions of Hindu?

Are you asking? Or telling?

From a Christian perspective they are completely wrong.

Not from my Christian perspective. Your brush is becoming broader by the day, joel.

No, they are all stories, none are real.

Who are you trying to convince -- yourself or others?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Are you asking? Or telling?

[QUOTE="joelr, post: 7724382, member: 54426" From a Christian perspective they are completely wrong.

Not from my Christian perspective. Your brush is becoming broader by the day, joel.

[QUOTE="joelr, post: 7724382, member: 54426"No, they are all stories, none are real.[/QUOTE]
Who are you trying to convince -- yourself or others?[/QUOTE]

Could you fix the format?