Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?
- Thread starter an anarchist
- Start date
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Done!
Bree
Active Member
I believe for a few reasons.
1, nothing comes from nothing. Its unfathomable to believe the universe and life arose by itself. Life is too complex to have arisen unaided.
2. People have witnessed God in the world. The accounts in the bible are eyewitness testimony. For example, I didnt need to be present during the first World War to know that it really happened. The testimony given by multiple people in the past are evidence enough for me to believe.
3. The Bible has a ring of truth to it that cannot be overlooked. Prophecy that has come true to detail and facts about things that humans could not know prove that what is written comes from a higher source.
ElishaElijah
Return
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV
In this verse you can see there is no contradiction but that eternal life is a gift that is through Jesus Christ, not by works, by faith, to be received.’
This results in a person being born again and in Christ, “we are His workmanship created in Christ for good works”. The works prove we have been born again and passed from death to life.
You think God would save people and leave them in their sinful state or a life with no purpose and nothing to do? Is this really too hard for you to grasp?
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Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Then you have never properly studied the Bible. A person that claims to be a Christian should be willing to study the Bible.
ElishaElijah
Return
Meant to say don’t know anything false in the Bible. But people spoke and made false statements and predictions in the Bible like some of the kings but later on were unable to fulfill their threats.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I understood what you meant to say.
The problem is that if you believe as you do you are claiming that God is a liar, even though you do not understand how and why. That is why one should be willing to properly study one's beliefs. We know that Genesis is myth, the Exodus is myth. Believing that they are literally true causes all sorts of theological problems.
ElishaElijah
Return
Well this is still last years conversation and not interested.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
By refusing to study this you do make it so that you cannot understand your own Bible fully.
I say whatever I want to? OK. What I want to say is what I understand the scriptures to mean, just like you say for yourself, although you didn't do very well on the Bible quiz below.
How do you think that comment is received by those who would say that you don't understand the scriptures? Hint: Confirmation bias. Consequence: Disqualified as a interpreter of scripture, who at a minimum one to be able to identify the contradictions and errors of fact contained therein. You never see them, so what value should be placed in what you do see?
Confirmation bias is easy to identify. Such people are in their own bubble and can't be reached with evidence or argument. I saw a comment today, "What evidence do you have that Trump committed crimes?" I'm obviously not going to be interested in his opinions on the matter, and not going to invest time trying in vain to penetrate his confirmation bias.
You asked me this question? It's really unfathomable that you did. How can you not know my answer to that? Let me ask you one just as unnecessary: Do you believe that when you die, that that will be the end of your consciousness? If you consider that a ridiculous question to ask a Christian, and I know you're a Christian because you told me you were, then shouldn't you have also realized what a ridiculous question that is for an atheist?
Crickets, huh? No problem. I will provide the answers now. Feel free to copy-and-paste this quiz for your files and to repost it (without attribution is fine) if you do:
[1] Is mankind saved by works or faith?
Both.
In one part, the bible says that man is saved by faith, not works ("For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works." - Ephesians 2:8-9) and in another, the exact opposite ("Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." - James 2:24)
[2] What were Jesus' very last words on the cross?
There are contradictory answers (you'll probably discern that that is the theme of the quiz).
Although all four gospels tell us what Jesus said on the cross as he was dying, only two actually say that the words they report were his final words, that is, that he died after speaking them without speaking again. John (19:30) says that Jesus' final utterance was, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." Luke (23:46) says it was, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last."
[3] Is it possible for men to be righteous?
Yes and no
According to Genesis 7:1, Job 2:3, and James 5:16, man can be righteous, whereas according to Romans 3:10, man cannot be righteous
[4] Has man seen God?
Yes and no.
Men have seen God: "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." - Genesis 32:30). The bible also tells us that no man has seen God: "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." - John 1:18
[5] Are all words from God true?
Yes and no.
According to Proverbs 30:5, every word of god is true, while we are told that God deceives prophets (1 Kings 22:23) and the wicked (2 Thess. 2:11-12).
[6] Does God grow weary or tired?
Yes and no.
The bible tells us that God gets tired and rests ("on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested" - Exodus 31:17), and also that God is never tired and never rests ("The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary" - Isaiah 40:28).
[7] How did Jesus answer the Sanhedrin when it asked if he was messiah?
That also depends.
According to Mark (14:62), when asked if he was the messiah, Jesus to the Sanhedrin "I am." According to Matthew (26:64), it was, "You have said so." And according to Luke (22:67), it was "If I tell you, you will not believe." So take your pick.
[8] What was the precise wording on the cross (English translation acceptable)?
According to Matthew (27:37), it was This is Jesus the King of the Jews. According to Mark (15:26), it said The King of the Jews. Luke (23:38) tells us it was This is the King of the Jews and according to John (19:19), it said, Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews
[9] Was Jesus taken by Satan to the temple or mountain first?
Both
Matthew (4:5-8) tells us that Satan took Jesus to the temple then the mountain, whereas it's the other way around in (Luke 4:5-9)
[10] What number of blind men received their sight on the road from Jericho?
That depends,
Two blind men were healed on the road according to Matthew (20:29-34), but it was just one according to Mark (10:46-47)
[11] Is God content with his works?
Yes and no
Genesis 1:31 tells us that, "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Genesis 6:6 reports that, "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
[12] Is God perfect, or does he make mistakes that he regrets?
Both.
Once again we look to Genesis 6:6, and contrast that with Psalm 18:30: "As for God, his way is perfect: The Lord's word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him."
Both.
In one part, the bible says that man is saved by faith, not works ("For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works." - Ephesians 2:8-9) and in another, the exact opposite ("Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." - James 2:24)
[2] What were Jesus' very last words on the cross?
There are contradictory answers (you'll probably discern that that is the theme of the quiz).
Although all four gospels tell us what Jesus said on the cross as he was dying, only two actually say that the words they report were his final words, that is, that he died after speaking them without speaking again. John (19:30) says that Jesus' final utterance was, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." Luke (23:46) says it was, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last."
[3] Is it possible for men to be righteous?
Yes and no
According to Genesis 7:1, Job 2:3, and James 5:16, man can be righteous, whereas according to Romans 3:10, man cannot be righteous
[4] Has man seen God?
Yes and no.
Men have seen God: "So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." - Genesis 32:30). The bible also tells us that no man has seen God: "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." - John 1:18
[5] Are all words from God true?
Yes and no.
According to Proverbs 30:5, every word of god is true, while we are told that God deceives prophets (1 Kings 22:23) and the wicked (2 Thess. 2:11-12).
[6] Does God grow weary or tired?
Yes and no.
The bible tells us that God gets tired and rests ("on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested" - Exodus 31:17), and also that God is never tired and never rests ("The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary" - Isaiah 40:28).
[7] How did Jesus answer the Sanhedrin when it asked if he was messiah?
That also depends.
According to Mark (14:62), when asked if he was the messiah, Jesus to the Sanhedrin "I am." According to Matthew (26:64), it was, "You have said so." And according to Luke (22:67), it was "If I tell you, you will not believe." So take your pick.
[8] What was the precise wording on the cross (English translation acceptable)?
According to Matthew (27:37), it was This is Jesus the King of the Jews. According to Mark (15:26), it said The King of the Jews. Luke (23:38) tells us it was This is the King of the Jews and according to John (19:19), it said, Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews
[9] Was Jesus taken by Satan to the temple or mountain first?
Both
Matthew (4:5-8) tells us that Satan took Jesus to the temple then the mountain, whereas it's the other way around in (Luke 4:5-9)
[10] What number of blind men received their sight on the road from Jericho?
That depends,
Two blind men were healed on the road according to Matthew (20:29-34), but it was just one according to Mark (10:46-47)
[11] Is God content with his works?
Yes and no
Genesis 1:31 tells us that, "God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." Genesis 6:6 reports that, "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
[12] Is God perfect, or does he make mistakes that he regrets?
Both.
Once again we look to Genesis 6:6, and contrast that with Psalm 18:30: "As for God, his way is perfect: The Lord's word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him."
joelr
Well-Known Member
Wow. That went so far over your head? But I don't think it was obscure at all so that's a bit odd?
That scripture was in response to a longer verse that explains what it means it be saved. The point of showing that is that there IS NO DEFINITIVE WAY because there are too many contradictions.
Now the article you posted may have said "oh no to be saved you have to do this and this..." however it's not my fault that there are several distinct and clear verses that say you just need belief.
The point is there IS NO ACTUAL VERSE you can point to and say this is the way you are a true Christian which someone was claiming.
So that was a complete waste. Whomever thinks thats a win is also failing to understand the thread.
joelr
Well-Known Member
That is so typical of an apologetics answer. The article didn't even come close to resolving those contradictions and no Exegesis (as if it's a magic fix everything word) will solve those contradictions.
But again, I'm showing someone that posting ONE scripture as the only way to be a true Christian just doesn't work. How many of these posts are you going to take completely out of context?
joelr
Well-Known Member
I guess the answer is a lot. You are going to take all of them out of context.
joelr
Well-Known Member
Are you asking? Or telling?
Not from my Christian perspective. Your brush is becoming broader by the day, joel.
No way. Another out of context response to a discussion I was having with someone else?
I was responding to this:
"I don't believe it is an ad populum argument. It is an argument for repeatability. If one person makes a claim, he could be daffy but millions of claims accrues credibility."
So yes I said there are billions of Muslims and Hindu. With a question mark to say are you really making this bad of an argument? Millions of claims accrues credibility??? Uh, no it does not. There are billions of Hindu and Billlions of Muslim. Those are not real so this is a terrible argument.
Oh is that right? You think Muslims actually had a revelation from the Angel Gabrielle and they were told that Jesus was in fact not the son of God but just a prophet. They say Christians and Jews lie are cursed and have screwed up Yahwehs message.
30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!
32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.
33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
Allah has sent his messenger (Muhammad) with the religion of truth. It (Islam) will prevail over all religion.
34 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,
Give tidings (Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis.
35 On the day when it will (all) be heated in the fire of hell, and their foreheads and their flanks and their backs will be branded therewith (and it will be said unto them): Here is that which ye hoarded for yourselves. Now taste of what ye used to hoard.
What does your Christian perspective say about that? Are they correct, you just implied they are?
As far as the argument to popularity it's a demonstrable fact that it can be a terrible argument.
As to religions, 100% stories based on myth.
Instead of answering posts to other people and making terrible points maybe you could actually answer the post in response to things you wrote me. You are getting nowhere with any of this?
And with evidence like that complete crank from coldcase Christianity it isn't hard to see how desperate these amateur apologists are by resorting to false evidence. That article was meant to pacify fundamentalists against some historical facts with the hope they wouldn't look into it.
Usually they don't.
I am fairly convinced by the evidence.
"And Christianity evolved from a sect of Judaism heavily influenced by Zoroastrian beliefs (see Not the Impossible Faith, Chapter 3). The very concept of an eschatological messiah and an end-times resurrection of the dead are actually Zoroastrian (as are belief in a burning hell, and a Satan as God’s adversary), imported into Judaism by cultural diffusion just a few centuries before Christianity arose.
........As we know other Jews did, and Zoroastrians as well, even specifically in their messianic model, the original messianic ideology the Jews developed theirs from. "
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joelr
Well-Known Member
And yet there are clear passages that say over and over just belief /faith brings salvation.
"not of works, lest anyone should boast."
Then we get
For you render to each one according to his works. Psalm 62:12
The labour of the righteous tendeth to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin. Proverbs 10:16
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:14
I the Lord ... give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. Jeremiah 17:10
When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul. Ezekiel 18:27
I will judge you ... every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 18:30
Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. Matthew 12:37
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16:27
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-46
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Luke 10:26-28
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:29
Who will render to each one according to his deeds.... For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. Romans 2:6, 13
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:15
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12
Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-25
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. 1 Peter 1:17
I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:23
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Revelation 20:12-13
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14
These are contradictions. I never said people with faith would still live in a sinful state? They could keep to themselves and just pray. But that could be a problem according to these passages.
The point is your original verse about what makes a Christian is just one cherry-picked verse. Your verse above claims good works come with the belief. except then it clearly says you are going to be judged by those works so they are NOT automatically going to happen. You cannot say definitively from one verse what makes a believer. You thought you could but you cannot.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Again, thousands of other denominations read the same bible as you do and walk away with quite a different opinion.
ElishaElijah
Return
What’s the different opinion?
ElishaElijah
Return
A person has to be born again or they aren’t a believer John 3. If a person is saying now there is no God and say they were a Christian once then they had to know God existed and had a relationship with Him. The 2 don’t mix, can’t have it both ways. An atheist who said they were a Christian weren’t really ever born again or they would be an apostate, still know there is a God, but would have rejected Jesus as their King.
So is a person born again by doing some works or is that a gift from God through Jesus Christ?
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TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
False.
They had to believe god existed and believed to have a relationship with this being whom they believed existed. And at the time, they might have also (incorrectly) used the word "know" instead of "believe" - just like you are doing here.
And now they just don't believe that anymore.
Obviously when looking back on it, they will no longer use the word "know", since they realize today it was just a belief and now believe it to be a wrong belief at that.
The thing that doesn't mix are the words "believe" and "know".
You claim to "know", but in reality you just believe.
They are not the same thing.
You don't know. Knowledge is demonstrable.
This is as backwards as it gets. And it all comes down to you being extremely confused about the terms "know" and "believe".
It is whatever you believe it to be.