There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[joelr]

God speaks Spirit to Spirit, also confirms with
his Word or other believers. I will be reading the Bible and the verse will come alive, something I have read a bunch of times will speak to me for a certain situation and you just know, it’s a living word not just words on a page.
You know when I don’t hear anything at all? When I don’t pray.
What I’m hearing from people on here is they are prayer less and faithless, these aren’t good attributes.

No, what happens is something you are reading is fresh in your mind and you find ways to apply it to things that happen in life. I did it myself with scripture then I did it again with the law of attraction. Both were equally successful. It's confirmation bias.

 

[joelr]

Thank you for your compliment, joelr. I appreciate it.

To be honest, it was very difficult for me to question God, the Bible, and what I believed as a Christian because I was raised in the church and indoctrinated to believe in God no matter what. I was taught to believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that I should never question its authority and accuracy. I was also taught to never question God in any way, and I was shamed by other Christians when I did. So, I quickly learned to keep my doubts and questions to myself while I was growing up. Unfortunately, this mentality stuck with me for the majority of my adult life, and I was a Christian for 30 years. I always felt shame and guilt whenever I questioned God, so I pushed my doubts to the back of my mind and tried to ignore them. But I lived with the nagging feeling that I was ignoring my doubts, and that made me feel sad and confused. Long story short, about a year and a half ago, I finally got to a breaking point where I decided that I wasn't going to ignore my doubts anymore. I decided I was going to face them, come what may, and so I did.

I began to examine and re-examine everything that I believed about God, the Bible, and everything else I believed as a Christian. As I said, it was very difficult for me, but I had my beloved, loving husband to help me get through it. I think of myself as a prime example of how deeply a person can be brainwashed and ensnared by a religion. My belief and faith in God were deeply entrenched in my psyche, and it was almost impossible for me to leave it behind. I compare my emotional dependence on God to being locked in a prison cell, except the door to my cell was open, but I never realized that I could leave whenever I wanted to. Being a devout Christian was detrimental to my emotional, mental, and physical health, and letting go of my faith was the best decision that I've ever made.

Apologists and church leaders have found many ways to keep people away from critical thinking and questioning the church through psychological manipulation. They also get new people when they are at their lowest and primed to be indoctrinated. That's great you have dropped useless beliefs that were hurting you!

 

[joelr]

And when you get to the Judgement that you don’t believe will happen and find out you are wrong about God and the events of the Bible, have miscalculated and now you have to suffer the consequences for eternity, then what? Still going to be talking or crying? Just asking, because people can do all kinds of talking right now. So you trust Science and I trust God.

You trust God. So do Muslims and Mormons and JW and Hindu and Sikh and Zoroastrians. So did the Heavens Gate cult.
Also the 2nd coming hasn't been miscalculated. It's a re-working of a Persian myth. No matter how hard you believe that isn't going to change. The church sold a story and your born again group bought into it. Doesn't make it any more real than Islam or Scientology.

But if you say you have communication with a God can you ask him for a string of 8 numbers?

 

[joelr]

Or else what? It’s a choice Hell is one choice, Heaven is the other. There is no Heaven apart from God

Nope. Both myths.


"
Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; " Mary Boyce



"
According to Posidonius the soul has a heavenly origin. It is an offshoot from the fiery breath of God held captive in the prison-house of the body through birth into the earthly world, but destined for return to its higher home. Only he who in life preserves the divine part from defilement will ascend after death above the lower spheres and rise to the divine source. Our reverence for the starry heaven above us and for the wonders of the cosmos proves the human soul's relation to the heavenly world, and this mystical consciousness of likeness with the divine begets an other-worldly ideal of life. "

 

[joelr]

Really? You’re omniscient now to be able to say that? What’s the percentage of all there is to know about the Universe do you actually know?
I know very little but what I do know is that God delivered me, gave me Eternal Life, speaks to me, has given me His Spirit as a guarantee of this promise. All this is through Jesus Christ.

more myth.
Bhagavad Gita: Chapter 18, Verse 62


BG 18.62: Surrender exclusively unto Him with your whole being, O Bharat. By His grace, you will attain perfect peace and the eternal abode.


Billions think the same of Lord Krishna. Sorry, not real. The Christian version is newer and still not real.

 

[samtonga43]

What happens is you pray for something and it doesn't happen. Eventually something else does happen that you consider a positive change and you call this an "answered prayer". It's called regular life and it happens to everyone. Religious people use it as confirmation bias for a God.

Oh Joel, you remind me so much of me when I was an atheist. I enjoy your posts so much!

 

[ElishaElijah]

The question is pertinent to you claim, that all prayers are answered, but sometimes the answer is no or wait.

So obviously that statement invites the question, what is the objective difference between a deity not answering a prayer, and there being no deity to answer any prayer?

I’ve answered that question and it doesn’t invite your question, why not answer your own question that I stated and you have your answer.
Your earthly Dad is a representative of your Heavenly Father. How was that relationship for you?

 

[ElishaElijah]

What happens is you pray for something and it doesn't happen. Eventually something else does happen that you consider a positive change and you call this an "answered prayer". It's called regular life and it happens to everyone. Religious people use it as confirmation bias for a God.

Except before I knew God I only got this:
“Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has conflicts? Who has complaints? Who has wounds for no reason? Who has red eyes? Those who linger over wine; those who go looking for mixed wine. Don’t gaze at wine because it is red, because it gleams in the cup and goes down smoothly. In the end it bites like a snake and stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, and you will say absurd things. You’ll be like someone sleeping out at sea or lying down on the top of a ship’s mast. “They struck me, but I feel no pain! They beat me, but I didn’t know it! When will I wake up? I’ll look for another drink.””
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭23:29-35‬ ‭CSB‬‬
Day in and day out this was my life. Then Psalms 107 and now I give thanks to God for the wonderful things He does every day! He’s so awesome and great!

 

[ElishaElijah]

No, what happens is something you are reading is fresh in your mind and you find ways to apply it to things that happen in life. I did it myself with scripture then I did it again with the law of attraction. Both were equally successful. It's confirmation bias.

Wow the law of attraction! I hadn’t thought of that, now I have something else to thank God for today, it’s never ending, a continual feast of gratitude going on. So I’m attracted to God and I get Heaven. I fix my eyes on Jesus the author and finisher of my faith and get to know Him more and more. Walking in the light my path getting brighter and brighter. I like that!

 

[Sheldon]

I’ve answered that question

No you haven't, you just keep repeating there is a difference, I asked what is the objective difference between what you perceive as a deity not answering a prayer, and no deity existing to answer it? You have not only not answered, you petulantly stated more than once you had no intention of answering. Would you like me to quote one of them?

and it doesn’t invite your question,

Of course it does, you claimed all prayers were answered, but some were answered with a no or a wait, so what is the objective difference between what you perceive as a deity not answering a prayer, and no deity existing to answer it? You can link where you think you have answered it if you prefer, but I guarantee you that you haven't.

why not answer your own question that I stated and you have your answer.

No idea what that means sorry? I see no objective difference obviously, as I said in my very first response to your claim, your assertion was the very definition of selection bias.

Your earthly Dad is a representative of your Heavenly Father. How was that relationship for you?

I see no relevance to the question I asked, or the topic. However if you answer mine, or admit that there is no objective difference.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I asked what is the objective difference

You mean what’s the difference between no and no? Or yes and yes?
A request to an idol is always no answer, with a demon you can get an answer to a request.
With God a no to a request means a yes to something else and the yes ends up to be a better option.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Oh Joel, you remind me so much of me when I was an atheist. I enjoy your posts so much!

FWIW, you and Elisha Elijah remind me of when I was a Christian. I was just as fervent as you both are in defending Christianity, but I finally got to a breaking point where I could no longer ignore the nagging feeling I had in my heart that my belief in a loving, merciful God and a "heavenly father" was incompatible with the reality of my miserable life and the trauma I endured growing up in an abusive home and being bullied in school. To be blunt, being a Christian for thirty years was a wretched experience for me, and I wasn't willing to hold onto my Christian faith anymore, so I renounced it about a year and a half ago. It was detrimental to my well-being—mentally, emotionally, and physically. I can't speak for anyone else who has also left Christianity, but renouncing my faith in God and letting go of the hope I had in him was the best decision that I've ever made for myself. It was literally a life-changing experience for me, and I don't regret it. I wish that I had had the courage to walk away years ago, because I could have saved myself a lot of pain and anguish.

 

[ElishaElijah]

FWIW, you and Elisha Elijah remind me of when I was a Christian. I was just as fervent as you both are in defending Christianity, but I finally got to a breaking point where I could no longer ignore the nagging feeling I had in my heart that my belief in a loving, merciful God and a "heavenly father" was incompatible with the reality of my miserable life and the trauma I endured growing up in an abusive home and being bullied in school. To be blunt, being a Christian for thirty years was a wretched experience for me, and I wasn't willing to hold onto my Christian faith anymore, so I renounced it about a year and a half ago. It was detrimental to my well-being—mentally, emotionally, and physically. I can't speak for anyone else who has also left Christianity, but renouncing my faith in God and letting go of the hope I had in him was the best decision that I've ever made for myself. It was literally a life-changing experience for me, and I don't regret it. I wish that I had had the courage to walk away years ago, because I could have saved myself a lot of pain and anguish.

Who are you trying to convince? I hear your heart breaking abusive situation, which I’m not in a position to speak about but I’m sure there are many people who have and have a different view of God than you do.
Was God your abuser? no, yet your judgement is that He stood their and watched while you suffered. I don’t share your view of God because in the end when we have all the information, as with Job and others, you may have a different view altogether when you see the whole picture.
If your accusations of God are correct then He would be unable to Judge anyone yet in Heaven all cry Holy, Holy, Holy and just and true are your ways.
My experience with God is not the same as yours, He bailed me out, gave me Eternal Life so no I won’t agree with you on God at all.

 

[Sheldon]

You mean what’s the difference between no and no? Or yes and yes?

This would be less idiotic if you hadn't just omitted the actual question that you have yet again ignored. Here it is with the link to the very post your responding to.

what is the objective difference between what you perceive as a deity not answering a prayer, and no deity existing to answer it?

There's no point answering the rest of your post yet again, as it is simply a repetition of your original claim, that a deity answers all prayers, but some are no and wait answers, which I have addressed ad nauseam. What you are still failing to do is explain what the objective difference is between your perception a prayer has been answered with a no, and no deity existing to answer the prayer.

You either have no objective difference, confirming my original point that it was blatant selection bias on your part, or you don't understand the question, which is bizarre, but would explain a great deal.

 

[ElishaElijah]

This would be less idiotic if you hadn't just omitted the actual question that you have yet again ignored. Here it is with the link to the very post your responding to.



There's no point answering the rest of your post yet again, as it is simply a repetition of your original claim, that a deity answers all prayers, but some are no and wait answers, which I have addressed ad nauseam. What you are still failing to do is explain what the objective difference is between your perception a prayer has been answered with a no, and no deity existing to answer the prayer.

You either have no objective difference, confirming my original point that it was blatant selection bias on your part, or you don't understand the question, which is bizarre, but would explain a great deal.

You’ll have to go to the prayer 101 class, you’re just clueless. Maybe ask @Sgt. Pepper to translate

 

[Sheldon]

Who are you trying to convince? I hear your heart breaking abusive situation, which I’m not in a position to speak about but I’m sure there are many people who have and have a different view of God than you do.
Was God your abuser? no, yet your judgement is that He stood their and watched while you suffered. I don’t share your view of God because in the end when we have all the information, as with Job and others, you may have a different view altogether when you see the whole picture.
If your accusations of God are correct then He would be unable to Judge anyone yet in Heaven all cry Holy, Holy, Holy and just and true are your ways.
My experience with God is not the same as yours, He bailed me out, gave me Eternal Life so no I won’t agree with you on God at all.

The Christian deity has often traditionally been assigned the characteristics of being omniscient omnipotent and omnibenevolent, @Sgt. Pepper's story would be strong evidence against such a deity, this notion of course has an entire field of apologetics that has struggled to explain the presence of suffering against the contradiction of such an extant deity, it's called theodicy.

Of course the idea existed and was studied long before humans created the Christian religion. Best summed up by Epicurus, centuries before Jesus us purported to have lived.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Epicurus died in 270 BC

 

[Sheldon]

You’ll have to go to the prayer 101 class, you’re just clueless

Resorting to petty ad hominem isn't going to fool anyone, since I am making no claims or assertions about prayer, merely asking a question, inferred from your claim that a deity answers all prayers, but some are answered no or wait.

Which naturally begs the question, what is the objective difference between your perception a prayer has been answered with a no, and no deity existing to answer the prayer?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Resorting to petty ad hominem isn't going to fool anyone, since I am making no claims or assertions about prayer, merely asking a question, inferred from your claim that a deity answers all prayers, but some are answered no or wait.

Which naturally begs the question, what is the objective difference between your perception a prayer has been answered with a no, and no deity existing to answer the prayer?

It’s a strange concept for anyone to pray to a God that doesn’t answer so there’s that

 

[Sheldon]

It’s a strange concept for anyone to pray to a God that doesn’t answer so there’s that

Indeed, but that is not what I asked, you claimed a deity answers all prayers, but answers some with a no or wait. To those who understand, this claim implied you know that a no is a deity saying no or wait. rather than a deity not answering because there is no deity. We know you hold a subjective belief this is true, but the question asked was can you explain the objective difference between what you perceive as a deity answering no to a prayer, and no deity existing to answer it. The sheer volumes of requests suggest the answer is no, you can't offer an objective difference, or you surely would have done so immediately, since it would support your claim.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The Christian deity has often traditionally been assigned the characteristics of being omniscient omnipotent and omnibenevolent, @Sgt. Pepper's story would be strong evidence against such a deity, this notion of course has an entire field of apologetics that has struggled to explain the presence of suffering against the contradiction of such an extant deity, it's called theodicy.

See that’s what I was waiting for you to step in. So you’re accepting @Sgt. Pepper anecdotal claim as strong evidence against such a diety.
Yet with my now strong evidence on how God delivered me, gave me His Spirit as a promise of Eternal Life you hypocritically say it’s just anecdotal.
See how you are? And now I’m glad you accept my story as strong evidence.