There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[Sheldon]

So there isn't an excuse when we make something in the image of what obviously was created by more than just evolution.

That's pure assumption, not very compelling argument.

The reality that it is possible without the reading of the bible is the knowledge that the American Indians worshipped the Great Spirit - you don't need to know Him as the Hebrew designation of Father to worship Him.

Several assumptions in there, that either deity imagined is real, that they are ostensibly the same deity, which is not remotely borne out by the evidence, and that the deity you imagine is real, is the one everyone else and all other religions have somehow missed. Again bare subjective assumptions are not very compelling.

Jesus did mention to go to the world

You have no way of knowing what Jesus did or did not say, it's pure second and third hand hearsay, and the earliest written versions were decades after the alleged events.

So, to sum it up, Christianity is needed because God want us to reach those who willfully worshipped that which was not God.

Another bare subjective assertion, again these are not very compelling.

Jesus came for the sick not the healthy (as he said).

Again you have no way of knowing this, since not one word written about Jesus can be verified independently of the bible and your religion, it's all subjective hearsay, compiled long after the alleged events.

His mercy goes beyond those who knew God and did righteousness, He sought after those who went astray, the prodigals.

Once again then, you have no way of knowing this, since not one word written about Jesus can be verified independently of the bible and your religion, it's all subjective hearsay, compiled long after the alleged events.

for them it is better to hear about Jesus.

That's just your subjective opinion, hardly a compelling argument. Most religious beliefs are little more than an accident of people's geographical birth. You'd in all likelihood be as devout a Muslim as you are a Christian, if you'd been born in many parts of the world, or a Hindu, or Sikh, Buddhist etc etc etc...

 

[Sheldon]

Are you an addict?

One doesn't have to have a disease or affliction, in order to be knowledgeable about it, that's axiomatic.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The success rate isn’t determined by your

Que?

Doesn’t matter to me what you assume or what you say at this point or @Sheldon or @Subduction Zone.

Yes, you made that clear already. It was kind of obvious by your posts, you weren't required to explicitly state the obvious like that.

I do have to wonder though... if you don't care about making our views known and / or defending them, then why are you even posting in a debate forum?

Perhaps some kind of echo-chamber would be better suited?

As far as spiritual matters and addictions, the comments show lack of understanding of AA, addictions, what determines success or failure.

I was addressing the dishonest reporting concerning their success rate. I wasn't at all commenting about their methods. I don't know their methods. Don't really care either at this point.

 

[Subduction Zone]

One doesn't have to have a disease or affliction, in order to be knowledgeable about it, that's axiomatic.

Often having an addiction makes one a terrible judge. Addictions highly bias one's perceptions.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why would I want to?

Because your beliefs are not valid for me and mine not for you.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Because your beliefs are not valid for me and mine not for you.

That’s what it seems, time and life have a way of exposing truth. I can tell you that crisis always comes and that’s where the rubber meets the road.

 

[ElishaElijah]

One doesn't have to have a disease or affliction, in order to be knowledgeable about it, that's axiomatic.

Well in this instance you’re missing it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That’s what it seems, time and life have a way of exposing truth. I can tell you that crisis always comes and that’s where the rubber meets the road.

Yeah, that all works for you in reverse. Because my position is valid for you.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Yeah, that all works for you in reverse. Because my position is valid for you.

Whatever that means

 

[ElishaElijah]

Often having an addiction makes one a terrible judge. Addictions highly bias one's perceptions.

That’s true for those in the midst of their addiction but someone who has recovered comes through that with an appreciation, gratitude and humility for life as well as discernment of people in the active addiction phase.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Whatever that means

All you say that applies to me also works in the other direction. All I say applies to you. That is how simple it is.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That’s true for those in the midst of their addiction but someone who has recovered comes through that with an appreciation, gratitude and humility for life as well as discernment of people in the active addiction phase.

What has that to do with God? I am a NA and you don't need God for recovery as such.

 

[ElishaElijah]

What has that to do with God? I am a NA and you don't need God for recovery as such.

What is step 3 for you?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What is step 3 for you?

Well, it was that I had to find something to believe in higher than me. So me, that was the idealistic norm that all people have positive worth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That’s true for those in the midst of their addiction but someone who has recovered comes through that with an appreciation, gratitude and humility for life as well as discernment of people in the active addiction phase.

Unfortunately it makes you very unqualified to judge the group that helped you. Sometimes AA does work. And that is a good thing. Just don't believe their own hype.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Well, it was that I had to find something to believe in higher than me. So me, that was the idealistic norm that all people have positive worth.

That’s more Step 2

 

[ElishaElijah]

Unfortunately it makes you very unqualified to judge the group that helped you. Sometimes AA does work. And that is a good thing. Just don't believe their own hype.

I didn’t think they had hype, just helping alcoholics recover.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I didn’t think they had hype, just helping alcoholics recover.

When they distort their success rate that is hype.

 

[ElishaElijah]

When they distort their success rate that is hype.

Working the 12 Steps was the most difficult and humbling things I’ve ever done and the most rewarding. Success depends on how thorough a person works the Steps.
What I learned working the Steps were the reasons I drank and drugged in the first place, the triggers, excuses and lies I believed that kept me in the cycle of addiction. I learned a lot about myself, I had a real spiritual awakening and was born again as a result, ended up with a clear conscience. Received the grace from God to change, clean up the past and now the ability to help other people.

Well you don’t stop working the Steps it’s a lifestyle.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Working the 12 Steps was the most difficult and humbling things I’ve ever done and the most rewarding. Success depends on how thorough a person works the Steps.
What I learned working the Steps were the reasons I drank and drugged in the first place, the triggers, excuses and lies I believed that kept me in the cycle of addiction. I learned a lot about myself, I had a real spiritual awakening and was born again as a result, ended up with a clear conscience. Received the grace from God to change, clean up the past and now the ability to help other people.

Well you don’t stop working the Steps it’s a lifestyle.

I am sure that it is not all bad. But their failure rate is much closer to the 90% level than their "50 + 25%" success rate.