There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[samtonga43]

Still responding without the integrity to address what I actually said. why bother? If your beliefs are so fragile, you can't stand critical scrutiny just use one of the many forums here that will give you the echo chamber you need.

You 'sound' upset, Sheldon. Are you?

 

[Sheldon]

You can critique or make me look foolish, you can do anything thst please you.

This is a debate forum, and you responded to me, remember? If you want to make bare assertions and not have them questioned, then don't use a debate forum, there are countless forums on thsi site for that.

I has no affect on my personal belief in God. Zero effect

Ignoring facts and arguments in this way, simply suggests a closed mind, and again you are posting your claims assertions and beliefs in a public debate forum. You seem to be shooting the messenger here?

 

[Spirit of Light]

So you don't know then, just as @Subduction Zone said, why not just admit that? It also was an assertion, you simply plagiarised it and posted it here. You didn't even have the integrity to put it in quotation marks, and explain to wasn't your own. Dear oh dear, perhaps debate is not for you?

You are getting pathetic.

I used Google to get a " right" answer for those who can not think for them selves what spiritual practice is.

You never accept anything told you to be the persons personal understanding anyway. SP why give you my understanding?

You disbelieve anything told to you anyway LOL

 

[Sheldon]

You 'sound' upset, Sheldon. Are you?

No I wouldn't let a debate upset me, I just find it amusing when people post claims in a debate forum, then get annoyed when others offer contrary argument. Especially when there are countless forum on this site that don't require debate.

 

[Sheldon]

You are getting pathetic.

Again you are resorting to petty ad hominem, this speaks for itself.

I used Google to get a " right" answer for those who can not think for them selves what spiritual practice is.

Which you passed off as your own, so hardly thinking for yourself.

You never accept anything told you to be the persons personal understanding anyway. SP why give you my understanding?

I accept what can be supported by sufficient objective evidence and or rational argument, why do you think I shouldn't be allowed to decide what I do and do not accept in a debate?

You disbelieve anything told to you anyway LOL

If all that is offered is unevidenced subjective anecdotal claims, then yes, I would usually be obliged to withhold belief. You disbelieve in almost exactly the same number of deities as I do, with just one exception, and if you can offer any objective difference between yours and the rest, without resorting solely to anecdote and unevidenced assertion or experience, that would be something to debate. Until then all anyone can do is point out the flaws in arguments presented.

 

[Sheldon]

it does not matter what others say, only personal experience for each person counts toward what people experiences within spiritual practice.

An oddly incongruous statement to post in a debate forum. However just to be clear, you appear to be saying you have experienced this, but cannot offer anything beyond the claim you have experienced it? Or claims about it, that demonstrate no explanatory powers to those who have not experienced it?

Is that a fair summation?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Not everyone who indulges is unable to control it. I'm off to the pub in a bit myself, catching up with a friend, we will be having a drink. Not harming anyone.

Hey, that’s true and enjoy getting together with your friend for a drink and catching up.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you don't know then, just as @Subduction Zone said, why not just admit that? It also was an assertion, you simply plagiarised it and posted it here. You didn't even have the integrity to put it in quotation marks, and explain to wasn't your own. Dear oh dear, perhaps debate is not for you?

Unfortunately we see this behavior quite often with theists. I have tried to explain to them time and time again that if they simply admit to having a belief no one would have any problem with them. But they want their cake and to eat it too. They want to be able to claim that their beliefs are rational. But for beliefs to be rational they have to be able to support them. And around and around we go.

The cure is so easy, add a qualifier of "I believe" and as long as the belief is not refutable or in in inappropriate forum and people will leave you alone,

For example: In a forum thread on religious beliefs: "I believe in God" Okay fine,

In a thread on evolution: "I believe in God" Now people are going to ask why that topic was even raised. It could lead to demands of evidence.

People need to understand context. Hmm, what is the title of this thread? . . .. Oops, God beliefs definitely require evidence here.

 

[Subduction Zone]

An oddly incongruous statement to post in a debate forum. However just to be clear, you appear to be saying you have experienced this, but cannot offer anything beyond the claim you have experienced it? Or claims about it, that demonstrate no explanatory powers to those who have not experienced it?

Is that a fair summation?

Not only that but on a forum in a thread with the title "There is no evidence for God so why do you believe? " As I just explained, such beliefs need to be supported by evidence in a thread like this.

 

[ElishaElijah]

No it was definitely an appeal to mystery,

A lot of things in life that used to baffle me and were mysteries are clear to me now. Just because people haven’t experienced God before and cannot discern spiritual things doesn’t mean others have not. Unless of course you believe your testing and reason are all there is.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A lot of things in life that used to baffle me and were mysteries are clear to me now. Just because people haven’t experienced God before and cannot discern spiritual things doesn’t mean others have not. Unless of course you believe your testing and reason are all there is.

That appears to be only because you are will to accept weak and facile excuses. It is always easy to "understand" something if you can say "God did it' or even worse "It is not evil when God does it". I do not think that you really understand much of anything, you have just found a handy non-explanation.

 

[ElishaElijah]

That appears to be only because you are will to accept weak and facile excuses. It is always easy to "understand" something if you can say "God did it' or even worse "It is not evil when God does it". I do not think that you really understand much of anything, you have just found a handy non-explanation.

Love you bro! You have no idea how much joy you bring to the conversation.
By the way, we put down some sod this morning and thought we were going to have to water all the grass by ourselves but it started raining just as we were finishing up. So, that’s the difference between someone using will power to overcome or when God intervenes and delivers someone. Personally, I’m going to ask God for help, his ways are way better and higher than mine.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You disbelieve anything told to you anyway LOL

Critical thinkers reject unevidenced claims. You don't provide evidence, just claims.

Scriptures are the "map" toward truth through spiritual practice.

This would be one such unevidenced claim. How many times have I asked you share some of these spiritual truths you have acquired, and you produced nothing?

To you and a good part of the atheists in RF, anything a theist or a spiritual person say, will sound as wishful thinking.

As above. What does wishful thinking look like if not claims that something is true which cannot be shown to be true?

the answers you find will be different than the answers i found on my journey.

Not really. I also acquired no real insights in my "journey" other than that the only path to truth is the application of reason to evidence of the senses.

You've offered insights from your daily life in the last few months which indicated personal growth, but these came with trying to understand what experience was suggesting to you. You've changed your understanding of what the disagreement of others on RF represents (not a personal attack) and learned to let it roll off your back. You've made progress in your artistic interests. You've made progress in your personal relationship. But all of this came from experiencing life and applying reason, some trial-and-error to see what works, what makes life better - not from "sitting cross-legged on the floor" (anybody know what time it is?) with your eyes closed listening to new age tunes.

The authentic spiritual experience arises from the mindful experience of daily life. Think about it. Think about which activities actually generate truths, by which I mean ideas that accurately predict outcomes in a way that facilitates navigating life. I've tried to discuss this with you before, but you never seem interested enough to even respond. You just repeat your unevidenced claim and bemoan the fact that you aren't believed. Why would anybody believe what you claim if you offer no truths or answers in support of your claims?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I have a picture of a geologic formation that refutes the Flood myth. It is still a bit of an awe inspiring image for me because I can understand the processes involved rather well.

That's a good description of an authentic spiritual experience. It's always when one is contemplating reality with understanding, which leads to a sense of connection to our world with an associated sense of mystery, awe, and gratitude.

It occurs when gardening, when listening to moving music, when contemplating the night sky, when contemplating the mystery of existence. It's always about what is here around us. Cutting oneself off from that and redirecting one's attention to imaginary realms and their denizens or unseen "dimensions" is pretty much the opposite of that.

Why would I want to put that poison in my body? I’m healed now and not sick anymore. People drink and drug, why? If you’re doing well already why would you need something to make you feel better?

That's how I feel when somebody tries to bring me back to theism, my escape from which was very much like quitting cigarettes. One senses the dysphoria of withdrawal and having one's attention repeatedly pulled back whether wanting a cigarette or, as I also did, find myself praying to a god I no longer believed in for much of a year ("Jesus, if I'm making a mistake, if you're really there, please give me a sign"). Like you, I feel like I was delivered from a kind of bondage. So, when they tell me to keep looking for Jesus, just try harder this time, my answer is about the same as yours. Why would I want to poison my mind with religion again? I'm better off than I was when I did. As you say, "If you’re doing well already, why would you need something to make you feel better?"

All Einstein's quotes against belief in God are only against belief in personal God, Bible, traditional religion

Once you strip God of personhood, whatever it is you are talking about should be called that. Look at the mess Einstein made with his injudicious use of the word to refer to the laws of nature. That name is good enough if that's what you are referring to. Or call it nature. Or even Mother Nature, a term which doesn't refer to a sentient entity and would never lead to an argument about what that phrase meant. My definition of a god is a sentient creator of universes, and I only use the word when referring to such an idea to avoid this kind of ambiguity.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The Memeptah Stele is evidence against your beliefs. It shows that the Bible history is incorrect. Yes, it does identify Israel as a country, but at that time was one of the possessions of the empire of Egypt:

How is that evidence against the Bible?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Critical thinkers reject unevidenced claims. You don't provide evidence, just claims.



This would be one such unevidenced claim. How many times have I asked you share some of these spiritual truths you have acquired, and you produced nothing?



As above. What does wishful thinking look like if not claims that something is true which cannot be shown to be true?



Not really. I also acquired no real insights in my "journey" other than that the only path to truth is the application of reason to evidence of the senses.

You've offered insights from your daily life in the last few months which indicated personal growth, but these came with trying to understand what experience was suggesting to you. You've changed your understanding of what the disagreement of others on RF represents (not a personal attack) and learned to let it roll off your back. You've made progress in your artistic interests. You've made progress in your personal relationship. But all of this came from experiencing life and applying reason, some trial-and-error to see what works, what makes life better - not from "sitting cross-legged on the floor" (anybody know what time it is?) with your eyes closed listening to new age tunes.

The authentic spiritual experience arises from the mindful experience of daily life. Think about it. Think about which activities actually generate truths, by which I mean ideas that accurately predict outcomes in a way that facilitates navigating life. I've tried to discuss this with you before, but you never seem interested enough to even respond. You just repeat your unevidenced claim and bemoan the fact that you aren't believed. Why would anybody believe what you claim if you offer no truths or answers in support of your claims?

Answers that I have gained through spiritual practice only answer personal issues, so no matter what, what it is told to others, they can not see it or realize it without actually practice the teaching too.

Example: in my search i realized that what we see as truth on earth, may ve far off what truth actually is to God.
Explaing that to a bon beliver is like smacking my head in the wall....it just going to fail, because the non believer will not understand other than the physical world.

 

[Wildswanderer]

This is incorrect. Science offers many how explanations.

Nope, only on how things work, not why the laws of the universe even exist.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Faith answers no questions unless one considers guesses answers.

Our faith answers all the questions of the soul.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Love you bro! You have no idea how much joy you bring to the conversation.
By the way, we put down some sod this morning and thought we were going to have to water all the grass by ourselves but it started raining just as we were finishing up. So, that’s the difference between someone using will power to overcome or when God intervenes and delivers someone. Personally, I’m going to ask God for help, his ways are way better and higher than mine.

Now why would you think that God did that? Did it only rain on your lawn and not on the lawn of another Christian nearby that need a dry one for an outdoor celebration? Now that would have been evidence of God if only your lawn got wet and no one else's did. This is what I meant by weak and facile explanations.

Sidenote, during my college years I was a sodbuster one summer. I worked at a place where we would cut sod and lay it all in the same day. Though instead of rolling it we would fold it a bit. We would flip each end over so it went about a foot towards the other one and pick it up and put it n a pallet. After about five layers we would have to correct for the dip in the middle. But there was a system and we would end up with nice five to six foot cubes of sod. When we laid it the fact that it was folded allowed us to throw it in such a fashion that it opened up in the air. And a quick tug and shove from on top made sure that it was in place. It allowed for very fast sodding. And massively sore forearms for the first week.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Of course it can. And does.

Why is hotter air less dense that colder air?

Why is TNT explosive?

Why is there a strong radio source at the center of many galaxies?

Science is *full* of why questions that have been answered.

You don't understand. Those are still " how" questions. All it answers is how things function. It doesn't answer why they should even exist or why laws of science exist. Why is there order instead of chaos? Why do we desire God?