There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[Polymath257]

Just reading NASA’s page, makes no sense and seems to go against physics.

If that is how it appears, then you aren't understanding something.

You have to have an energy source at the beginning,

That seems to be one misunderstanding. There was energy in the early universe. But that isnot the same as an energy source: the energy was there whenever time and space was there.

if an eternal God is not that source what is?

Even if there was an energy 'source', why would that source have to have an intelligence? maybe it is as simple as a quantum fluctuation.

Eternal energy source with no governing laws and can change on a whim? That’s some kind of belief and faith based on nothing.

Who said anything about it being 'eternal'? or 'changing'?

You say it is faith based on 'nothing', but have you studied any general relativity and the evidence for it? Have you studied the evidence for the hot Big Bang model? have you done the math to understand why general relativity leads to the type of model seen in the Big Bang? Have to looked at the math and seen what it says about the possibility of 'before the Big Bang'?

if not, then how can you say it is faith based on nothing?

 

[Polymath257]

It's everything that gives life meaning

What, precisely, is 'everything that gives life meaning'?

..if we are just accidentally created, meaning doesn't exist.

I strongly disagree. meaning is what *we* give to things. So it is meaningful *to us*.

And some atheists are honest enough to admit that.

it seems to me that you have a flawed understanding of the concept of 'meaning'.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Let’s see, before I met God debt, wrecked cars, over due bills, in trouble with the law, worry, pain, sexual disease, unwanted pregnancy, theft, isolation from society.
After prayer and God’s deliverance, peace, purpose, success in life, marriage, health, relationships restored, provision for family of 16, 25 years of marriage, Eternal Life, Hope, Contentment.

Right now you appear to give all credit to God. It it true though?

So the second you became a Christian all temptation vanished? No relapses, no desires to get high. No withdrawal symptoms. Is that what you are claiming?

 

[Polymath257]

Let’s see, before I met God debt, wrecked cars, over due bills, in trouble with the law, worry, pain, sexual disease, unwanted pregnancy, theft, isolation from society.

Sounds like you were miserable.

After prayer and God’s deliverance, peace, purpose, success in life, marriage, health, relationships restored, provision for family of 16, 25 years of marriage, Eternal Life, Hope, Contentment.

So it seems like the *belief in God* gave you the incentive to change.

If this is a matter of a trick of psychology or just try harder and tough it out then go ahead and try, but I found that when God intervenes some is effortless, some isn’t but He gives supernatural power to overcome.

it looks l to me like you got fed up and decided to change. What, specifically, did God do to help you change?

 

[ElishaElijah]

That seems to be one misunderstanding. There was energy in the early universe. But that isnot the same as an energy source: the energy was there whenever time and space was there.

Without God where did this energy originate? Because that’s where your faith is, my faith is that God is the Eternal Source and He proved that to
me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Without God where did this energy originate? Because that’s where your faith is, my faith is that God is the Eternal Source and He proved that to
me.

Why do you think that there had to be a source? Where did God originate? The odds are that the answer is the same.

And "proved to me" is a meaningless phrase. It is not proof if every rational reasoner cannot see that it is proof.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sounds like you were miserable.



So it seems like the *belief in God* gave you the incentive to change.



it looks l to me like you got fed up and decided to change. What, specifically, did God do to help you change?

It started out fun, then the consequences, when I tried to quit is when I realized I was addicted and from 1983-1987 tried to quit, parents forced me into rehab and thought it was a joke. The addicts and alcoholics sending me to checking out for them.
A moment of honesty happened when the counselor asked me why I was putting poison in my body and I didn’t have an answer, realized i couldn’t quit and was probably going to die from this. That’s when I prayed in my room and cried out to God, He was there in that room and although I didn’t see anything He delivered me, no withdrawal, no more smoking, no more drugs, no more alcohol. It was instant. Now the character issues and making amends was different, being delivered like that enabled me to work out all that by working the 12 Steps, in the process I got saved and was born again, I can tell the difference being born again because I have the grace to overcome temptation and sin where before I had no defense against these things.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Why do you think that there had to be a source? Where did God originate? The odds are that the answer is the same.

I don’t think the human mind can comprehend these questions, yet here we are.
The Bible says when we see Him we will be like Him and I believe in that moment is when I will get that understanding.
“Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭3:2-3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Polymath257]

Let’s see, before I met God debt, wrecked cars, over due bills, in trouble with the law, worry, pain, sexual disease, unwanted pregnancy, theft, isolation from society.
After prayer and God’s deliverance, peace, purpose, success in life, marriage, health, relationships restored, provision for family of 16, 25 years of marriage, Eternal Life, Hope, Contentment.

If this is a matter of a trick of psychology or just try harder and tough it out then go ahead and try, but I found that when God intervenes some is effortless, some isn’t but He gives supernatural power to overcome.

OK. You have presented a phenomenon: going from debt, bills, theft, isolation, trouble with the law, worry, pain, sexual disease, unwanted pregnancy to peace, a feeling of purpose, success in life, marriage, health, restored relationships, ability to take care of a family, etc.

I'm limiting these to the things that can be observed by others.

You have proposed that this phenomenon can be explained by the intervention of a supernatural creator God.

Some questions that immediately arise:

1. Have other people made similar changes in their lives?

2. How common are such changes?

3. Do all who experience such changes attribute the changes to the same deity that you do?

4. if not, do people in different societies attribute the changes to the deities of their culture?

5. Have any people had such changes and *not* attributed the changes to any deity?

6. Do the changes last equivalent time periods for different attributions?

7. What other things are in common in people who have had such changes?

8. By what mechanism do you propose that this deity affected the changes?

now, in order for your particular hypothesis (your particular deity affected these changes) to be the best explanation, it should be the case that most, if not all, people who have had equivalent changes also attribute those changes to the same deity.

Do you think this is likely to be the case? Do you agree that it is an appropriate initial test for your hypothesis?

Also, if your hypothesis is correct, the likelihood that the changes will be lasting for those that give the same attribution as you should be better than for those who do not give such an attribution.

Do you think this is likely to be the case? Do you agree it is an appropriate test for your hypothesis?

And, again, if your hypothesis is correct, those from other societies who do not attribute their changes to your deity should be fewer and have poorer long term results.

Do you think this is likely to be the case? Do you agree it is an appropriate test of your hypothesis?

 

[Polymath257]

Without God where did this energy originate? Because that’s where your faith is, my faith is that God is the Eternal Source and He proved that to
me.

Why do you think the energy needed an origin?

Do you think that God needs an origin?

 

[Polymath257]

It started out fun, then the consequences, when I tried to quit is when I realized I was addicted and from 1983-1987 tried to quit, parents forced me into rehab and thought it was a joke. The addicts and alcoholics sending me to checking out for them.
A moment of honesty happened when the counselor asked me why I was putting poison in my body and I didn’t have an answer, realized i couldn’t quit and was probably going to die from this.

It sounds like you were scared. Fear is a strong motivator.

That’s when I prayed in my room and cried out to God, He was there in that room and although I didn’t see anything

OK, so you admit that you did not see anything in the room. You *interpreted* your change to the deity you just called out to in fear.

He delivered me, no withdrawal, no more smoking, no more drugs, no more alcohol. It was instant. Now the character issues and making amends was different, being delivered like that enabled me to work out all that by working the 12 Steps, in the process I got saved and was born again, I can tell the difference being born again because I have the grace to overcome temptation and sin where before I had no defense against these things.

And is your claim that everyone that has gone through a similar change did so with the help of a deity they called out to?

That this is the *unique* way that such a change can occur?

or is it possible the fear you felt was enough to motivate you to change? that 'moment of honesty' made it so you could change yourself?

 

[Polymath257]

I don’t think the human mind can comprehend these questions, yet here we are.
The Bible says when we see Him we will be like Him and I believe in that moment is when I will get that understanding.
“Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.”
‭‭I John‬ ‭3:2-3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So, no answer. Just an insistence that there has to be an explicit origin in one case, but not in the other.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Humans designed automobiles for a reason: to transport things.

And they figured out how to put things together to get that goal. But all those components were tested independently *first* and then assembled.

You have to understand 'how' before it can be made. We knew the 'why' because we were the ones that decided what needed to be done.

Now, in the case of life, we *know* it works: it grows and reproduces. the first question is then *how* does it manage to do that. Over the course of the last century, we have learned in detail how life does what it does chemically. And it *is* a complex collection of chemical processes.

To ask where it came from is to ask how that complicated collection of chemical processes started to function. That involves understanding the chemistry not just of the present processes of life, but also the chemistry that can *lead* to those processes. This is the stage we are exploring currently: we are trying to understand the chemistry that can lead to the complicated processes involved in life.

This is the study of where life 'came from': by what mechanism did it arise. What conditions were required for it to begin? how did the variety of different chemical processes that we know *is life* begin and become integrated together?

So, once again, we *know* life is a complex collection of chemical processes. We *know* hat the original chemistry is not the same as the chemistry involved now. We are *investigating* the chemistry involved that *could* be a precursor to processes involved in life.

And we do not have all of the answer yet. But we know where to look and what sort of questions to ask.

"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance, he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

Robert Jastrow

 

[Wildswanderer]

OK, so you admit that you did not see anything in the room. You *interpreted* your change to the deity you just called out to in fear.

You know nothing unless you experienced what he did. It's foolish to try and convince a person to abandon what they know with certainty because God showed up. You are trying to pick at a cement wall with a tooth pick. It's pointless.

 

[Wildswanderer]

and none against it and abundant evidence for abiogenesis

Lol, there's no such thing.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The way to learn about where life came from is to more fully understand where it is now first. So learning about point A to point B is the first step to learning how and why it arose.

It's not working.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's everything that gives life meaning..if we are just accidentally created, meaning doesn't exist. And some atheists are honest enough to admit that.

And I think that's nonsense. What "meaning" do you get to suppose you were created, but for no reason that you can know about? Man can invent tools to heal and tools to kill. For all you know, your God might have created all of the universe just as a weapon against some other universe, and how would you know otherwise?

You want meaning for yourself? It's yours to find -- for yourself. Just as, if you have kids, you don't, at the moment of their birth pronounce, "Okay, this is the doctor, this one's a plumber, and this girl, yes, I think ballet dancer would be right," and then expect them all to do precisely that. No, they find their own life's work -- they find their own meaning. Nobody need give it to them.

 

[Firelight]

I’ve been reading through a couple of threads, and I see that it is said that there is no evidence for a god, it’s an unfalsifiable idea. We all agree on this? If you don’t, care to explain the evidence there is for god?
I’m in agreement. I used to believe my personal experiences to be subjective evidence for god, but I know now that’s not the case. I am not a theist anymore because I recognize I was a Christian thanks almost completely to my environment. That’s why I believed. I was brought up in it. Wasn’t because of any proof or anything,
So, theists, why do you believe? Is it mainly because of your environment and geographical location? There is no proof for god (right?), so what logically keeps you believing? Or is logic not supposed to be a factor when it comes to faith? Is it too jarring, the idea of leaving the comfort that religion and belief in a god brings?
I am curious about personal evaluations on why you believe. It can’t be because of logic, as there is no proof of god, right?

I believe because God can prove to me that He is real in a matter of seconds, and no amount of “science” or evidence can disprove His existence in any amount of time. God is the best “proof” of Himself. If you want proof, ask Him.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Really? Then you know that there is endless evidence for evolution and none against it and abundant evidence for abiogenesis and none against it either.

Lol, there's no such thing.

Really?!? You've mastered all of biological science now? Wow, how precocious of you!

 

[Polymath257]

It's not working.

Really? Why do you say that? What do you think it would look like if it was working but not yet accomplished?