"There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

[Alceste]

If you care about even one thing, then there is something that you care about the most. Hence, ultimate concern.

No, there is not. There are many things I care about, and they wax and wane in importance relative to one another. As Sunstone said, it's up to you to prove this isn't the case, since you're the one making the assertion.

You may not appreciate this, but I would hope the Americans here can. The first amendment of the U.S. constitution protects U.S. citizens by saying that govt cannot impose a religion on us and cannot interfere with our practice of religion. Does that apply to just to what yall call the "religious" folks? Or does it apply to everyone?

If the latter, why?

Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. In this way, it includes everybody, religious or not.

I'll note here that our govt in its wisdom does NOT define religion as being a set of beliefs or rituals. The reason it does not define religion that way is the same reason why the religion clause of the first amendment protects everyone, is the same reason why Tillich, the Anglican theologian, myself and others argue that everyone has a religion.

Are any of these people doing the arguing (that everyone has a religion) atheists? Or are they all religious people?

It seems to me they (and you) are generalizing about a point of view they do not understand.

 

[Magic Man]

What about the Ten Commandments? Are you claiming that they are beliefs or practices??

Um...yes. Are you claiming they are not?

You do realize, don't you, that there are significant numbers of Jews who do not believe in God?

Ah, I was wondering whether you were going this way with it. Yes, I've had this argument, and I, in fact, even started a thread about it awhile back. I don't know whether that's a bait and switch or moving the goalposts, but it is a fallacy. Those Jews are considered secular Jews who don't practice the religion of Judaism, so they are irrelevant to our discussion. We are only concerned with Jews who practice Judaism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You may not appreciate this, but I would hope the Americans here can. The first amendment of the U.S. constitution protects U.S. citizens by saying that govt cannot impose a religion on us and cannot interfere with our practice of religion. Does that apply to just to what yall call the "religious" folks? Or does it apply to everyone?

If the latter, why?

I'll note here that our govt in its wisdom does NOT define religion as being a set of beliefs or rituals. The reason it does not define religion that way is the same reason why the religion clause of the first amendment protects everyone, is the same reason why Tillich, the Anglican theologian, myself and others argue that everyone has a religion.

I think I should note that legal definitions aren't always the be-all and end-all of the discussion, unless my car ceases to be an automobile* when I jack it up to change a tire.




*since one legal definition of "automobile" I came across was (IIRC) a powered vehicle with at least four wheels not in a line in contact with the ground.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What about the Ten Commandments? Are you claiming that they are beliefs or practices??

You do realize, don't you, that there are significant numbers of Jews who do not believe in God?

There are significant numbers of Jews for whom Judaism is a cultural or ethnic identity and not a religion.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

There are significant numbers of Jews for whom Judaism is a cultural or ethnic identity and not a religion.

I'm sure there are people who think this way. However, Judaism technically is not an ethnic identity. I thought it was and Jay quickly corrected me. However, there seems to be some gray area:

Who is a Jew? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Magic Man]

I'm sure there are people who think this way. However, Judaism technically is not an ethnic identity. I thought it was and Jay quickly corrected me. However, there seems to be some gray area:

Who is a Jew? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would agree that Judaism is only a religion, but "Jewish" is an ethnicity, as well as a religion. The point is that there are Jews who don't practice the religion, and they are still Jews because "Jew" refers to more than a religion.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/62620-true-jews-black-2.html

Jeremiah 14:2 and black Israelites?

 

[Magic Man]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/62620-true-jews-black-2.html

Jeremiah 14:2 and black Israelites?

I don't mean to be rude, but was there a point to this?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I don't mean to be rude, but was there a point to this?

Did you look at the information?

 

[Magic Man]

Did you look at the information?

Yes. I just don't understand what you're trying to say with it.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Yes. I just don't understand what you're trying to say with it.

However, we will state the position that, in light of conversion and intermarriage, a Jew can have the any of the various morphologies present among the human species.

Jews are not an ethnic identity.

 

[Storm]

I can think of quite a few Jews who would disagree.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I can think of quite a few Jews who would disagree.

I'm sure there are, doesn't validate it.

 

[Storm]

I'm sorry, I must've missed the part where you validated your position.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1268143-post44.html

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jews are not an ethnic identity.

Hopefully you'll agree on my central point, though, that Judaism is more than a religious term. The beliefs of all Jews don't constitute a single religion.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Hopefully you'll agree on my central point, though, that Judaism is more than a religious term. The beliefs of all Jews don't constitute a single religion.

As it was described to me, it's a covenant.


http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1268246-post46.html

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

As it was described to me, it's a covenant.

Or, IOW, it's a religious view held by one group of people that generally includes themselves and a wider group who do not necessarily share the same view... is that a fair re-wording?

If so, then I don't see how all Jews could be considered to share a single religion. They wouldn't share common theistic beliefs or even lilithu's "ultimate concern".

 

[Magic Man]

Jews are not an ethnic identity.

Well, this is entirely a different debate which we can have in another thread if you want, although I already had this thread going. Suffice to say that Jews are indeed an ethnic identity. Woody Allen is still considered a Jew by everyone, I'd bet even you, but, guess what? He's an atheist. Regardless, though, the point is that a Jew who doesn't believe in God (whether or not you consider him a Jew at that point) doesn't practice the religion of Judaism, and is therefore irrelevant to a conversation about that religion.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Or, IOW, it's a religious view held by one group of people that generally includes themselves and a wider group who do not necessarily share the same view... is that a fair re-wording?

It would seem to me that this term has many different meanings to different people. Nevertheless, in Biblical terms, it would describe a group of people who recognize and practice the Laws, rituals and covenant that Moses received from God on Mount Sinai.