"There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

[Jeremy Mason]

Actually, that would be on "my side". Those Jewish friends of yours don't practice the religion, just the culture, as you describe yourself. That's my point. They're still Jewish, they just don't practice the religion of Judaism, just like I don't practice Christianity when I go to church with my parents on Christmas or for weddings, etc.

If non-practicing Jew can be Jewish, can a non practicing Muslim be a Muslim?

 

[crystalonyx]

I've had Jewish friends in the past that were atheists, one can easily be Jewish by heritage, but not believe in god.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I've had Jewish friends in the past that were atheists, one can easily be Jewish by heritage, but not believe in god.

So a non-practicing Muslim can be a Muslim, right?

 

[Apex]

If non-practicing Jew can be Jewish, can a non practicing Muslim be a Muslim?

Have you really never heard of someone being Jewish in reference to the culture and not religion?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Have you really never heard of someone being Jewish in reference to the culture and not religion?

Yes, it's just some very respected people here on RF have made it clear that Jews are technically people who follow Judaism as Muslims are people who follow Islam. The fact that they're of Israeli descent (and that I means their forefathers were Israeli citizens), doesn't qualify them to be Jewish. You have to follow Judaism to be a Jew and the fact that many other people say otherwise is silly.

 

[lilithu]

It's OK, I'm sure they already know anyway, so there's no need to let them know.

The point, mball, is that they consider themselves to be practicing Jews.

 

[lilithu]

So a non-practicing Muslim can be a Muslim, right?

Yes, just as non-practicing Christian can be Christian.

 

[lilithu]

Not at all the same. You are assigning the attribute of religiousness to people who would rather not have that particular label stuck onto them. Nobody would be annoyed to be accused of breathing.

Yes, clearly you're annoyed. Even tho I'm clearly using a different meaning. The question is why you're so annoyed about be labeled "religious." Clearly it's impinging on something that you value. A sense of "I'm not one of them"?

Not everyone in terribly concerned about meaning and identity.

You've convinced me, Alceste. You don't care about meaning and identity (despite the fact that you display such pride in not caring about meaning and identity), so I'll just talk to those who do.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Yes, just as non-practicing Christian can be Christian.

It would appear that many people who call themselves Christian's are not practicing Christian. Guess what?

Malachi 2:8 (NIV)
8 But you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble; you have violated the covenant with Levi," says the LORD Almighty.


Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

It's obvious that the God of the Bible differentiates between the two.

 

[Magic Man]

If non-practicing Jew can be Jewish, can a non practicing Muslim be a Muslim?

No. That's why I said it's a unique situation. (I assume said Muslim doesn't believe in Islam either)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's obvious that the God of the Bible differentiates between the two.

It's obvious that you place inordinant faith in the opinions of a couple of anonymous authors.

 

[Apex]

You have to follow Judaism to be a Jew and the fact that many other people say otherwise is silly.

Uh, no you don't. We even just went over this in my Philosophy of Western Religions class. Our professor was talking about the difficulty in actually tying down what you mean when you say Jewish as it can mean several different things in today's world, one of them being heritage or culture and not specifically religion.

 

[Magic Man]

The point, mball, is that they consider themselves to be practicing Jews.

Yes, as I said, they are practicing the culture of being Jewish. They are not practicing the religion of Judaism. The actual point is that they are not part of the religion of Judaism, just the culture.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

No. That's why I said it's a unique situation. (I assume said Muslim doesn't believe in Islam either)

I will most definitely give you that one. I liken it to some people who call themselves Catholic; you would have never have known if they hadn't said anything.

I think we see eye to eye now.

 

[lilithu]

It would appear that many people who call themselves Christian's are not practicing Christian. Guess what?

It's obvious that the God of the Bible differentiates between the two.

Yes, and there are Muslims who say that certain Muslims aren't really Muslims, and Jews who say that certain Jews aren't really Jews...etc. Even if you are practicing but you don't do it the same way that I do.... There seems to me to be as much arguing within religious traditions as there is between them.

I won't dispute that God makes a distinction between some people who call themselves Christian and others who call themselves Christian. The more pertinent question is on what basis the distinction is made. Is it between those who go to church on Sundays and those who don't? Or is it between those who live the teachings of Jesus in their daily lives and those who don't? What exactly does it mean to be a "practicing" Christian?

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, it's just some very respected people here on RF have made it clear that Jews are technically people who follow Judaism as Muslims are people who follow Islam.

Who has asserted that? And, if there are such people, why are their opinions so much more valuable?

The fact that they're of Israeli descent (and that I means their forefathers were Israeli citizens), doesn't qualify them to be Jewish. You have to follow Judaism to be a Jew and the fact that many other people say otherwise is silly.

You don't have to follow Judaism to be a Jew. All you have to do is be born to Jewish parents. The fact that you don't get that is silly.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Uh, no you don't. We even just went over this in my Philosophy of Western Religions class. Our professor was talking about the difficulty in actually tying down what you mean when you say Jewish as it can mean several different things in today's world, one of them being heritage or culture and not specifically religion.

Well, is the Bible wrong? I understand the modern implications completely. It's just that the Bible has a strict definition of what a Jew should be, that's all.

 

[lilithu]

Yes, as I said, they are practicing the culture of being Jewish. They are not practicing the religion of Judaism. The actual point is that they are not part of the religion of Judaism, just the culture.

So you are telling them this, even tho they don't see it that way?

You're the one making a distinction between culture and religion. I don't. And a lot of people don't. In fact, it is a very recent distinction.

 

[Magic Man]

I think we see eye to eye now.

Do you still believe that a Jew who doesn't believe in Judaism or God is not a Jew?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, as I said, they are practicing the culture of being Jewish. They are not practicing the religion of Judaism.

Rubbish. When is the last time you were at a Reform or Reconstructionist Shabbat service or Torah class?