"There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."

[lilithu]

Well, is the Bible wrong? I understand the modern implications completely. It's just that the Bible has a strict definition of what a Jew should be, that's all.

Even if one follows the bible literally and accepts that it defines what a Jew "should" be, that doesn't mean that if you don't do it, you aren't Jewish. It just means you're not meeting those expectations.

Just say for the sake of argument that you believe that every good Christian should say the Lord's Prayer every day, because it says in the bible that that's what Jesus taught us to do. Are you really going to argue that that those Christians who do not say the Lord's prayer every day are not Christian?

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, and there are Muslims who say that certain Muslims aren't really Muslims, and Jews who say that certain Jews aren't really Jews...etc. Even if you are practicing but you don't do it the same way that I do.... There seems to me to be as much arguing within religious traditions as there is between them.

I won't dispute that God makes a distinction between some people who call themselves Christian and others who call themselves Christian. The more pertinent question is on what basis the distinction is made. Is it between those who go to church on Sundays and those who don't? Or is it between those who live the teachings of Jesus in their daily lives and those who don't? What exactly does it mean to be a "practicing" Christian?

You're missing the point again. It's not one person telling another that they are not Christian because they are doing something wrong, or believing something they shouldn't. It's making the distinction between a culture/ethnicity and a religion. No one is saying that an atheistic Jew who doesn't practice Judaism isn't a Jew. We're just saying they aren't a Jew in the religious sense. I'm pretty sure any such person would agree.

 

[Magic Man]

So you are telling them this, even tho they don't see it that way?

Maybe you should ask them before assuming. I'm pretty sure they'd agree.

You're the one making a distinction between culture and religion. I don't. And a lot of people don't. In fact, it is a very recent distinction.

Um...it's not a very recent distinction. You're right, I'm making the distinction between culture and religion in response to your comments regarding religion. A lot of people don't, I'm sure. I'm not interested in what a lot of people believe for these purposes, though. I'm interested in the standard definition of religion and how it applies to the situation at hand. That is what started this tangent, after all.

 

[Magic Man]

Rubbish. When is the last time you were at a Reform or Reconstructionist Shabbat service or Torah class?

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[lilithu]

You're missing the point again. It's not one person telling another that they are not Christian because they are doing something wrong, or believing something they shouldn't. It's making the distinction between a culture/ethnicity and a religion. No one is saying that an atheistic Jew who doesn't practice Judaism isn't a Jew. We're just saying they aren't a Jew in the religious sense. I'm pretty sure any such person would agree.

No..., you are missing the point. (Are you paying any attention to Jay's posts here??)

My Christian friends who don't go to church on Sunday and don't really believe that Christianity is the "only" way or ... heck, I even have friends who are Christian who don't believe that Jesus was God.... they STILL believe that they are Christian. They try to practice the teachings of Jesus, love thy neighbor, etc, every day. Who are you or anyone else to say that they're not?

 

[lilithu]

Maybe you should ask them before assuming. I'm pretty sure they'd agree.

mball, I am telling you what they tell me. I'm not the one assuming here.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

It's obvious that you place inordinant faith in the opinions of a couple of anonymous authors.

Your right...

Jayhawker Soule
Judaism is and always has been corporate. The narrative suggests a confederation of tribes forged on the basis of a religious covenant.

Yid613

Originally Posted by
Azakel Jew. It's both a race and a religious. Don't ask me to explain it, I know a Jew can do it better then I could if I try.

Judaism is not a religion or a race. It is a convent with G-d made at Mt. Sinai. One who is a party to this convent either by birth or by conversion is a Jew.

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason
I stand corrected. I thought since they were not allowed to intermarry that that would have isolated the blood line, but that didn't always happen. Israelis share nothing more than citizenship.

It not about isolating the blood line. If one’s spouse is of a different religion one would most likely follow their spouse’s religion also. This is what it is trying to prevent.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I attend Shabbat services and Torah class regularly along with a number of nontheists. It is interesting to see mball speak so confidently about areas in which he is clearly and thoroughly ignorant.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's obvious that you place inordinant faith in the opinions of a couple of anonymous authors.

Your right...

Jayhawker Soule
Judaism is and always has been corporate. The narrative suggests a confederation of tribes forged on the basis of a religious covenant.

So far we're in perfect agreement ... :yes:

 

[Jeremy Mason]

So far we're in perfect agreement ... :yes:

Thank you! :highfive:

 

[Magic Man]

No..., you are missing the point. (Are you paying any attention to Jay's posts here??)

My Christian friends who don't go to church on Sunday and don't really believe that Christianity is the "only" way or ... heck, I even have friends who are Christian who don't believe that Jesus was God.... they STILL believe that they are Christian. They try to practice the teachings of Jesus, love thy neighbor, etc, every day. Who are you or anyone else to say that they're not?

As I already stated, that is not at all what is going on here. I'm not saying someone's not Jewish, or someone is not Christian because they don't believe that Jesus is God. So, please stop with that distinction. It is irrelevant here.

 

[Magic Man]

mball, I am telling you what they tell me. I'm not the one assuming here.

I highly doubt you've had this particular discussion with them.

 

[lilithu]

I attend Shabbat services and Torah class regularly along with a number of nontheists. It is interesting to see mball speak so confidently about areas in which he is clearly and thoroughly ignorant.

What this conversation once again makes me think is that religious liberalism has become so marginalized in this society that people don't even know it exists. People have accepted the conservative doctrine that religion must be the adherence to certain beliefs and/or practices (or else one is not x) and continue to accept this doctrine even as they claim to reject the authority of the religious conservatives.

 

[Magic Man]

I attend Shabbat services and Torah class regularly along with a number of nontheists. It is interesting to see mball speak so confidently about areas in which he is clearly and thoroughly ignorant.

So, do you believe in the religion of Judaism?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I'm really a frog.

 

[lilithu]

I highly doubt you've had this particular discussion with them.

Ok, whatever. If you continue to insist that I'm making things up even when I tell you that I am relating what Jewish friends have told me, and even as Jay is right here corroborating, then clearly there is no more intelligent discussion to be had.

 

[Magic Man]

What this conversation once again makes me think is that religious liberalism has become so marginalized in this society that people don't even know it exists. People have accepted the conservative doctrine that religion must be the adherence to certain beliefs and/or practices (or else one is not x) and continue to accept this doctrine even as they claim to reject the authority of the religious conservatives.

What it makes me think is you're using a different definition of the word "religion" than most people use and you're trying unsuccessfully to show why the dictionary is wrong.

You're welcome to your definition, and it might have its uses. It certainly is not a definition that works for everyone or one that can be used in all instances of the word "religion".

 

[Magic Man]

Ok, whatever. If you continue to insist that I'm making things up even when I tell you that I am relating what Jewish friends have told me, and even as Jay is right here corroborating, then clearly there is no more intelligent discussion to be had.

No, the problem is that you've moved away from your original argument, the one about your definition of religion, and how the dictionary definition is wrong. If you have discussed this with them in the context of your definition of religion versus the dictionary definition, and whether or not they consider themselves part of the religion of Judaism rather than just the culture (It's a very specific discussion), I'd be extremely surprised. Part of my surprise would come from discussions I've had with Jews that would tend to support my assertions (although I admit that I have not discussed this exact topic with them).

As for Jay, he's not even arguing the original argument.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What this conversation once again makes me think is that religious liberalism has become so marginalized in this society that people don't even know it exists. People have accepted the conservative doctrine that religion must be the adherence to certain beliefs and/or practices (or else one is not x) and continue to accept this doctrine even as they claim to reject the authority of the religious conservatives.

Rev. Antje Jackelén comes to mind. However, in the case of mball this problem goes beyond simple ignorance. It is a pretentious ignorance that allows him to make baseless claims while simply dismissing the experience of others.

 

[Magic Man]

Rev. Antje Jackelén comes to mind. However, in the case of mball this problem goes beyond simple ignorance. It is a pretentious ignorance that allows him to make baseless claims while simply dismissing the experience of others.

Yup, so just keep ignoring the question...Do you believe in the religion of Judaism?