These people are lunatics

[Yerda]

I'm not suggesting that the atrocities in Gaza are defensible. But I've been wondering for a while how you fight people who are clearly mental. If I was Palestinian I'd be mental too perhaps. But if I was Israeli I think I'd be terrified. They scare me and I'm in Scotland.

How do you deal with Hamas?

This isn't rhetoric. I am clueless as to how you fight Hamas and groups like them because I cannot accept that they have the right to exist and I do not accept that the Israeli state is right to behave as it has (even if it was working).

 

[Yerda]

Does that make sense?

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, it does. I have opined in other threads that, odd and even impracticable as it may be, the only sound approach is in fact to heal the Gazans, or even Hamas proper.

It would be by no means easy, much less painless, but I believe it is both workable and necessary. And ultimately it would be greatly rewarding as well.

 

[xkatz]

I think the best way is for Israel and the PA to get back to the negotiating table once a ceasefire is obtained. Also, Abbas needs to end the unity govt and Fatah needs to seek peace on it's own w/o Hamas in the govt. If Abbas and Fatah can get a state and a peace deal, it really "knock the steam" out of Hamas and IMO a lot of people would move away from the movement's idea of a military/jihadist solution.

 

[Yerda]

I think the best way is for Israel and the PA to get back to the negotiating table once a ceasefire is obtained. Also, Abbas needs to end the unity govt and Fatah needs to seek peace on it's own w/o Hamas in the govt. If Abbas and Fatah can get a state and a peace deal, it really "knock the steam" out of Hamas and IMO a lot of people would move away from the movement's idea of a military/jihadist solution.

I thought Abbas was relatively powerless now. I really am not up to date.

 

[xkatz]

I thought Abbas was relatively powerless now. I really am not up to date.

He's relatively powerless (and corrupt IMO) to the stop Hamas aggression seeing that he never had any tangible control of Gaza. But he's certainly seen as the leader of the PA and he does have diplomatic power.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think the best way is for Israel and the PA to get back to the negotiating table. Also, Abbas needs to end the unity govt and Fatah needs to seek peace on it's own w/o Hamas in the govt. If Abbas and Fatah can get a state and a peace deal, it really "knock the steam" out of Hamas.

I fear some of us, particularly those who are named Luis Dantas, will need some context here.

Let me see if I got this right:

Mahmoud Abbas is the President of the Palestinian Authority (PA), and Fatah is the political party to which he is aligned.

While Abbas does not necessarily have the best of relations or even the trust of Israelis, he is still generally perceived as a much more reasonable (and less violent) interlocutor than Hamas. That of course is not saying much, but nonetheless a very relevant consideration here.

Hamas is, of course, seen as problematic by Israel. Little wonder. I would see anyone who swore to destroy me as problematic too.

Hamas is a rival of Fatah, a separate significant political tendency among the Palestinians. And at least at the moment, a far more bloodthirsty one.

However, the political situation among the Palestinians has been rather troubled in the last ten years or so. Among other very questionable situations, Abbas' mandate has long expired, yet he refused to step down, so his legitimacy is in question. In part for that reason, he has been attempting an unity government where many, even most of the influential positions are occupied by Hamas members while many others are from Fatah. This is a CNN newspiece from 2011 covering a certain point of the efforts at an understanding between Fatah and Hamas.

If I am correct in that understanding of the situation, then it would seen that your suggestion has a major obstacle to overcome: Abbas's legitimacy is questionable enough to begin with. Attempting to sidestep Hamas at this point could very easily jeopardize what is left of his credibility, perhaps violently. For all anyone knows, that might be 1979's Iran all over again.

I can't blame you for wanting that to be possible and to happen. But I don't know that it is a good thing to try without a lot of evidence that it is safe to do so.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I don't see how Hamas are lunatics. The people of the Gaza Strip are desperate, impoverished and suffering people who justifiably have hatred towards the state of Israel and so they have elected a militant group that promises to fight for them. It's to be expected. Why are you calling them "lunatics" when it's Israel that's bombing hundreds of civilians off the face of the earth just in the last month alone? Put yourself in the shoes of the people of Gaza and have some empathy. (I don't support attacks on civilians, period, personally but I understand Hamas and the desperation of suffering people.)

 

[Yerda]

I don't see how Hamas are lunatics.

What do you know about them?

 

[xkatz]

If I am correct in that understanding of the situation, then it would seen that your suggestion has a major obstacle to overcome: Abbas's legitimacy is questionable enough to begin with. Attempting to sidestep Hamas at this point could very easily jeopardize what is left of his credibility, perhaps violently. For all anyone knows, that might be 1979's Iran all over again.

It's a fair point to make. But FWIW I simply do not see any other choice. Abbas and Fatah want to solve this through diplomacy and international bodies, while it's clear Hamas does not. The two will come to conflict regardless. I'm not so sure that sidestepping Hamas would really damage his credibility seeing that Hamas is probably not as popular as people think and really only holds power in Gaza through force IMO. And I don't really see Israel allowing Hamas to seize power in the West Bank if push comes to shove.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What do you know about them?

What the news says and what Wikipedia says.

 

[xkatz]

I don't see how Hamas are lunatics.

So it's sane of them behead people for speaking out against them, using child labor to dig tunnels for the purpose of kidnappings, attacking an opponent with far superior military capability, and say you're victorious with thousands of civilian causalities? :sarcastic

 

[s2a]

I'm not suggesting that the atrocities in Gaza are defensible. But I've been wondering for a while how you fight people who are clearly mental. If I was Palestinian I'd be mental too perhaps. But if I was Israeli I think I'd be terrified. They scare me and I'm in Scotland.

How do you deal with Hamas?

This isn't rhetoric. I am clueless as to how you fight Hamas and groups like them because I cannot accept that they have the right to exist and I do not accept that the Israeli state is right to behave as it has (even if it was working).

When that answer becomes apparent to you..share it. I see a Peace Prize in your future if you do.

What manner of a 2000+ year old feud provide? To anyone? EVER?

My view is for both sides to find a compromise and seek a lasting peace.

Crazy, I know...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So it's sane of them behead people for speaking out against them, using child labor to dig tunnels for the purpose of kidnappings, attacking an opponent with far superior military capability, and say you're victorious with thousands of civilian causalities? :sarcastic

I don't know about the beheadings and all that stuff but I was saying that I can understand why Gazans elected a militant group to lead them. That's all.

 

[xkatz]

I don't know about the beheadings and all that stuff but I was saying that I can understand why Gazans elected a militant group to lead them. That's all.

That's different though than saying that Hamas is or isn't insane (or at the very least, stupid).

 

[LuisDantas]

It's a fair point to make. But FWIW I simply do not see any other choice.

I do, and I described it above. I will readily admit that it is exceedingly difficult and more than a bit unusual and dangerous. It still looks far superior to any other alternative I can think of or have heard of.

Abbas and Fatah want to solve this through diplomacy and international bodies, while it's clear Hamas does not.

No argument from me.

I am not ready to simply take as a premise that Hamas can not and will not be convinced to change its stance, though.

The two will come to conflict regardless.

That may well be a strong understatement. They have not exactly been in the best of understandings in the last ten years or so. I can very easily seem them actually at full blown war at each other. Not a desirable scenario for anyone, I think.

I'm not so sure that sidestepping Hamas would really damage his credibility seeing that Hamas is probably not as popular as people think and really only holds power in Gaza through force IMO.

You are hoping a lot of the desire for Gazans (and West Bank Palestinians) to try alternatives to force. I'm not sure there is a significant percentage of Palestinians who even understands that there are alternatives.

How many of them have ever lived through situations where such alternatives were made manifest?

No, I fear that, formidable a task as it certainly is, the way to go must be by teaching them alternatives first. All the while having to dispell their earned mistrust and even hatred first.

And I don't really see Israel allowing Hamas to seize power in the West Bank if push comes to shove.

No matter what the cost, isn't that what you mean?

For what it is worth, neither do I. I sure hope neither of us have to find out whether we are right about that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's different though than saying that Hamas is or isn't insane (or at the very least, stupid).

Yeah, probably. I'm tired as hell and should probably take my *** to bed. Lol.

 

[Yerda]

What the news says and what Wikipedia says.

OK. I suggest you reread the wiki article to start with.

 

[sandandfoam]

First, I am no supporter of violence. I think Hamas is an awful organisation.
But I think the question must be asked why they exist?
It would seem to me that violence begets violence and that the current war in Gaza is only going to create even more extreme and radical militants.

 

[Estro Felino]

Honestly, dear, have you ever seen in UK Muslims and Jews killing each other?
I haven't. Not even in my country.
That's because we live in secular normal countries, where all religions are equal before the law.
They want to go on with that religious fanaticism, evidently because they like war.