This might be stupid but...

[Badran]

If a guy is homeless and can't feed his family because he gambled away all his money, is that a punishment? If a teenage skateborder attempts a reckless move and breaks his arm, is that a punishment? If a person gets cancer from decades of heavy smoking, is that a punishment?

No, its not. What you're talking about is a punishment however. Here in this part you're talking about consequences not enforced by anyone, unlike what we're talking about.

Consequences are different than punishments. Leaving a man you've injured for dead is a choice deserving of a consequence in my mind.

He's already suffering consequences for that, and according to what Lawerence wants to do he will go through more. You're however talking about whether or not he should suffer certain consequences. Certain consequences enforced by society, which is a punishment. Not saying i object to the idea of punishment, just that its exactly what you're talking about, not consequences.

Even what Lawerence wants to do is punishment, which is fine of course. He is however aiming for a possibly less destructive one.

What that consequence is shouldn't be Lawrence's (the victims) choice, it should a matter for a judge and jury of his peers.

We simply disagree on that entirely then. Not saying it should be totally up to Lawerence, but that the victim most definitely should have a say, and a very important one, in my view. That say isn't limitless or independent of certain factors however.

My mom once hit a cat with her car. She stopped and cried over that cat's body and then went over to the neighbors house and confessed to accidentally hitting that cat. The point is that my mother showed more care for that animal than this fellow did for another human being... I think he deserves to answer for this.

Shoot, a cried over a bird that swooped in front of my car and got hit while I was driving down the highway. I had a dog run right out in front of me once and I hit it and immediately stopped my van and got out to check on it. It had quickly scampered back to its doghouse and I spoke to the owner. I can't even fathom hitting a person and not stopping. Hell, I've stopped to check on a cat that got hit by another driver. How can someone NOT stop when they hit a person?

Whatever emotion that was winning over the guy at the moment, it certainly wasn't compassion. We already know that much, and we already know that what he did was terrible.

However just because a person can't imagine themselves doing that thing doesn't mean that the criminal in question is inhumane. Obviously Lawerence understands, and so do i for example (NOT excuse, just understand).

So again i think its just a matter of the crime committed, the history of the criminal, the law and the victim.

 

[Renji]

Lawrence, are you saying that you are suggesting that this guy get his license - in other words, his ability to drive - revoked FOREVER?

That will seriously hurt his ability/options to care for his two kids.

Heck, I promise you - if my choice was either spend a year or two in jail, or lose my license for the rest of my life, I'd make a beeline to the pokey and learn how to paint license plates and be somebody's ***** for awhile.

I think it will have no effect on his ability to take care of the kids. In our country, you can ride jeepneys to get your kids on school if you want to commute or something. And yeah, driving isn't his job ( and his car isn't the luxurious type. It's quite old and rusty already. Will try to search a pic on the net on how it looks like to give you an idea).
As of his license being revoked forever, it's up to the court if they will approve that (once an agreement between me and the driver has been signed), it will go to a due process so I don't see it unfair for my or his side. I just thought that if his license will be revoked and he won't be able to get another, he won't be able to be in that situation again, at the same time, it will teach him a lesson that he will never, ever forget. But as I said, it will go on a due process and needs to be in agreement with the Philippine law (which I'm not much familiar with)

As for psychology vs sixth sense, and your ability to "read" people - it takes a lot more than a psychology course or even a degree to accurately read others. It also requires objective reasoning - and I suggest that you are too emotionally involved in this case to be able to be objective.

I may be emotional, but I did mention that even before seeing his kids, I originally don't want to sue him. The reason? I don't know. Just thought that I don't need to. And after seeing the prison cells here, it really suck. 100+ prisoners in an old, stinkin' prison cell, with no proper food service and medical support in case the prisons got sick and those riots in prison, sending him there makes me not different of what he did to me. It's not humane IMO.

 

[Kathryn]

To me it would depend on how long he had to go to prison. It's different cultures we're discussing here as well, so we probably won't reach any sort of agreement. In most of the US, a permanent revocation of your license would basically be depriving you of your ability to build any sort of sustainable career that could support a family. I'm sure there are exceptions but generally speaking, unless you live in a large city, you pretty much need to be able to drive yourself around.

 

[Renji]

And whatever my decision is, it can't stand alone. It will undergo due process. It's some sort of court settlement/ agreement (I don't know what's the direct translation of that on english.). In the end, it's still up to the court.

 

[Me Myself]

As long as the guy can´t drive again, I am at peace.

May your decision bring peace to everyone and may God help you all

:namaste

 

[Renji]

As long as the guy can´t drive again, I am at peace.

May your decision bring peace to everyone and may God help you all

:namaste

Kamsahamnida. Don't worry, this "snoring guy" knows what he's doing. And thinks of what is just for both of us.

 

[Gharib]

if you can find it in you to forgive him then i would recommend that. accidents do happen, in a situation like this i tend to think that most people want a punishment on the driver not because he hit them but because he fled the scene. if all is good with you then thats the main thing. and like you say he should at least pay the medical bills for hitting you if it was his fault and do some community work. why make his children go through a difficult time at such a young age because of personal spite.

i hope my post helps.

 

[McBell]

if you can find it in you to forgive him then i would recommend that. accidents do happen, in a situation like this i tend to think that most people want a punishment on the driver not because he hit them but because he fled the scene.

Nope.
I find it rather suspicious that he had to be caught.
seems to me he had no intentions of turning himself in.

It was only after he was caught that he suddenly felt remorse.
So what is he really remorseful about?

It is said he does not have a criminal record.
Is that because he is not a criminal or is it because he just never got caught?

 

[Kathryn]

why make his children go through a difficult time at such a young age because of personal spite.

If the man goes to jail, it's NOT because of "personal spite." It's because he committed a heinous crime and civil societies punish and/or restrict criminals in order to maintain a safe society.

 

[Gharib]

Nope.
I find it rather suspicious that he had to be caught.
seems to me he had no intentions of turning himself in.

i thought that was the whole idea behind fleeing the scene.

It was only after he was caught that he suddenly felt remorse.
So what is he really remorseful about?

everyone makes a mistake, fortunately this mistake/accident didn't cost an innocent life. only a person who does something willingly and fully aware of the consequences would not feel any remorse, so why wouldn't this guy if he had no intention of willfully running over Lawrence? if it is proven that he willfully ran him over then that is a different case. that would be an attepted murder rather than an accidental hit and fleeing the scene.

It is said he does not have a criminal record.
Is that because he is not a criminal or is it because he just never got caught?

all criminals had no criminal record at one time, thats doesn't justify him getting a pat on the wrists. thats not the reason why i think it would be better to forgive him.

 

[Kathryn]

Hold up, Eselam - it's one thing to run someone over, and panic and flee the scene (I still can't imagine being that hard hearted but I guess some people might do so) -and then later turn yourself in. It's another thing to NEVER turn yourself in, but simply be caught later.

This guy didn't turn himself in. He was CAUGHT. Two very different scenarios. For all he knew, Lawrence was permanently disabled, or even dead.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed with his virtue. I know lots of truly awful people who have managed not to rack up a criminal record - yet.

 

[Gharib]

If the man goes to jail, it's NOT because of "personal spite." It's because he committed a heinous crime and civil societies punish and/or restrict criminals in order to maintain a safe society.

maybe you are right, i am looking at it from an islamic perspective to a degree.

but i have to ask the following, what do you think should happen to the driver if he did remain at the scene and called or took his victim to the hospital?

if it happened like above then and Lawrence wanted to forgive him then that should be fine, however since it didn't happen like that then i can understand the view about him getting punished for having fled the scene but not for the run over if Lawrence forgives him.

i hope that makes sense.

 

[Renji]

To give you dudes an idea, the car that hit me looks something like this, minus those twigs and perhaps it's really not that rusty (sorry, can't find any pic on the net that looks like it)

So you can pretty much see his situation, it's not that nice. And if we put him "in", it will just be worse.

And by the way, the guy didn't beg for me like "please don't do *this* or *that*" nor he cried till his tears turned to blood or something like that. It's not easy to make such decision like what I did, but to make the innocent (the kids) suffer because of someone's recklessness, I don't think so.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Lawrence, it isn't your job to save him.

Forgive him if you will, but whatever he is experiencing as a result of his actions, do not take that burden on your shoulders so that he is relieved.

Let that burden be put on the justice system to sort through. I think the compassion can best be placed toward his children, though. Keep in contact with them. Send them a card on their birthday.....I don't know....just let them you know you care.

I think your heart is huge. You want to embrace humanity. And you want people's suffering to be lessened as much as possible. You want to make a difference in this world. I get that.

Just....be careful. :flower:

 

[Renji]

Nope.
I find it rather suspicious that he had to be caught.
seems to me he had no intentions of turning himself in.

It's part of the law here (as my attorney has said to me). Once you hit someone and ran away, as long as you have been reported with the adequate info's like plate numbers and such, it is the job of the police or the local government in which that person belongs to, to find a way to track that person down and have him caught, especially if it's the request of the victim and/or his relatives. It's also applicable for other forms of crime.

It was only after he was caught that he suddenly felt remorse.
So what is he really remorseful about?

The fact that he might be separated from his kids I guess. And the regret perhaps that he should have done something to help and not run away because he won't be facing such situation if he had done that thing.

It is said he does not have a criminal record.
Is that because he is not a criminal or is it because he just never got caught?

In here, even if you aren't caught (or even if you have been cleared already of what you've done), as long as you're reported to the authorities (or what we call "blotter"), it is very impossible for your record to be "clean" once it has been checked (unless you are that influential and you have a backer), since what you've done has been filed already on their database. The database may not be that high tech at times, but the authorities have ways to track down your records.

 

[Renji]

Lawrence, it isn't your job to save him.

Forgive him if you will, but whatever he is experiencing as a result of his actions, do not take that burden on your shoulders so that he is relieved.

Let that burden be put on the justice system to sort through. I think the compassion can best be placed toward his children, though. Keep in contact with them. Send them a card on their birthday.....I don't know....just let them you know you care.

I think your heart is huge. You want to embrace humanity. And you want people's suffering to be lessened as much as possible. You want to make a difference in this world. I get that.

Just....be careful. :flower:

I'm not saving him Mystic. It may look that way, but he can actually learn from that court settlement (if it gets approved). And yeah, I'm taking extra care on my steps.

 

[Renji]

And I'm happy doing this. I'm not saying that I have no "bad feelings" on him. I can forgive, but I can't forget in this scenario because if I just forget it, it might happen again. It's just that, I want to be "just". Also, this decision is not that easy to make, as I also need to face some social consequences like my friends teasing me (that I should have a halo and a pair of wings or be on a cloud, standing, wielding a sword and some stuff like that... but I understand why they do that) and my parent's (and my gf's) disapproval. But, as day passes by, they are somehow learning to accept it. Besides, I'm cool with my decision (and there's nothing wrong with it's validity and legality so far). I just need for the court's decision and the side of the driver on the settlement.

 

[McBell]

It's part of the law here (as my attorney has said to me). Once you hit someone and ran away, as long as you have been reported with the adequate info's like plate numbers and such, it is the job of the police or the local government in which that person belongs to, to find a way to track that person down and have him caught, especially if it's the request of the victim and/or his relatives. It's also applicable for other forms of crime.

Yes, he was so remorseful for hitting you that he had to be caught.
Seems to me that the fact he did not turn himself in is a good indication that he was not remorseful until he realized he was not going to get away with it.

And what would have happened had he not gotten caught?
seems to me nothing.
So it appears the only reason he is being made ( and please note that he is being made, he did not volunteer) to own up for his actions and face any consequences is simply because he got caught.

The fact that he might be separated from his kids I guess.

yeah.
But only AFTER he got caught and now actually faces that possible consequence...

And the regret perhaps that he should have done something to help and not run away because he won't be facing such situation if he had done that thing.

Again, only AFTER he got caught...

In here, even if you aren't caught (or even if you have been cleared already of what you've done), as long as you're reported to the authorities (or what we call "blotter"), it is very impossible for your record to be "clean" once it has been checked (unless you are that influential and you have a backer), since what you've done has been filed already on their database. The database may not be that high tech at times, but the authorities have ways to track down your records.

If they do not know who committed a crime how can they put it on the criminals record?

 

[Draka]

It does seem to me if he was really sorry about what he did his guilty conscious would have spurred him to come forward on his own and turn himself in. If a person has to be caught the most they are usually really sorry about is that they got caught. So it may look like they are sorry for what they did, but they are really sorry for themselves that they actually have to pay for what they did. It is more about them than who they hurt.

 

[Badran]

I agree with all who said that the fact that he got caught at least increases the possibility that he's just remorseful for being caught and having to face all this, rather than for what he did to Lawerence. However, also want to give the other possibility a fair chance, which is that he already was remorseful before he got caught. He could've been tearing himself apart from guilt but still doesn't give himself in for many possible reasons. Generally, that reason i would think would be a more powerful emotion, such as fear for what was going to happen to his kids, or even fear generally.