This might be stupid but...

[waitasec]

Lawrence may be having his emotions manipulated. He also strikes me as being very trusting of others. Sometimes being firm or practicing "tough love" is very difficult.



Judges usually aren't at the scene of the crime either. All they can do is go by what others tell them. We're just giving Lawrence advice and our opinions. He opened up the topic of conversation and we're discussing it.



Or maybe it's because other people (like his parents, for instance) have already told him they think he's being unwise. Maybe he IS being unwise.

Not everything that goes against the grain is admirable or wise. My issue is not with the fact that Lawrence is "going against the grain." My gosh, I've gone against the grain most of my life. Given the facts according to Lawrence, I am skeptical of the other guys' motivation and character.



Well, that's one way to look at it. I think it's great to stand by your convictions - if they're not misguided.

you have every right to feel the way you do...
so does lawrence...
but even if he was misguided, lawrence is free from it. no extra harm done to him. and to project this onto a future situation, to me seems like an act to show some sort of control over an uncontrollable situation...lawrence could have been paralyzed...that is the reality of the situation

honestly i feel this has to do with how one is supposed to react when being wronged...since now there's an opportunity to show them who their messing with, show them real power, after being powerless over the situation.

i just think that if one can let it go...good for them.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

I think he's probably playing you bro. I wouldn't drop anything. Next time this guy might kill somebody. The stuff with having the kids around is textbook manipulation. This guy has some family who will look after his kids for a while, I assume. I don't doubt that by looking in his eyes you see sincere remorse. Unless his integrity has completely done a 180, which is a process that usually takes years not days, he's most likely remorseful because he got caught, not because he's broken hearted about what he did to you. Going to jail might hurt the kids in the short run but it might make him a better father in the longrun to get some REAL discipline, not just the slap on the wrist you want to give him now. You strike me as a young guy Lawrence, listen to some folks a little older than you on this one.

 

[glanis]

confront him, talk to him ask him why he left, ask him whats important in his life and well if he says a genuine 'im sorry' leave it at that and move on, him being in jail wont make a difference now it wont change his feelings because i bet he is distraught, let the kids have there daddy be the bigger man and move on, anger clouds judgement

 

[waitasec]

I think he's probably playing you bro. I wouldn't drop anything. Next time this guy might kill somebody. The stuff with having the kids around is textbook manipulation. This guy has some family who will look after his kids for a while, I assume. I don't doubt that by looking in his eyes you see sincere remorse. Unless his integrity has completely done a 180, which is a process that usually takes years not days, he's most likely remorseful because he got caught, not because he's broken hearted about what he did to you. Going to jail might hurt the kids in the short run but it might make him a better father in the longrun to get some REAL discipline, not just the slap on the wrist you want to give him now. You strike me as a young guy Lawrence, listen to some folks a little older than you on this one.

you assumed and your basing your judgement on assumption?
:tsk:
for shame.

 

[Magic Man]

As you all know, I am a hit and run victim, got hospitalized and the univ have to make me stop my studies in the middle of this sem (which makes me very sad). Anyway guys, the driver who hit me was now caught and jailed. I was able to meet him face to face and his 2 kids yesterday (he can't even dare to stare on my face). I was smiling alright because I wanted to lessen the tension between me and him. The first question that I was able to ask him is why did he ran away and just left me lying in the street. I'll just not put his answer here, but I can feel some sort of fear and sincerity in his answer. I've also seen his 2 kids (which I think are about 5-7 years old) crying from a distance while I was conversing with their dad. I was really moved (and I pity the kids) by that so I can't help but call them and say "Don't worry, I'm not going to do something wrong with daddy. Don't be afraid, I'm your bro"- something like that.


And as I've put in the title, this might be stupid, crazy or whatever, but I DON'T want to file any complaints against that driver. It's not like I'm making him not responsible for what happened to me or I don't feel any "bitterness" on him, but it's just that I pity his kids and I don't want to take their dad away from them because of being jailed for years (he's a single parent and I worry of who will take care of the kids when he's "in"). I have soft spot on kids and seeing them so concerned for their dad really breaks my heart. What I was thinking now (and what I've been suggesting to my attorney) is just to revoke his license, make him do some community service on our univ and make him pay expenses that my parents had spent when I was hospitalized (they're saving that money so that they have something to use when they are already old). Se Jin, my parents and my friends disapprove this of course, but I just said that they should just leave it to me...

I wish our justice system was based on this type of feeling. I applaud you for this. He knows what he did was wrong. I think the idea of him paying all of the medical bills (and maybe some extra for lost wages and such), doing community service and maybe suspending his license for a period of time is a wonderful idea. I think you get a fitting punishment to drive the lesson home, but you don't make the kids suffer.

 

[Magic Man]

I agree with Kathryn, this guy committed a crime. He's guilty of accidentally injuring another person, then running away and leaving him to die or lay in agony. Actions have consequences. He expresses remorse, but he deserves to answer for his actions. A man puts his hand on a hot stove and gets a terrible burn...you may pity the man, but its still his fault and he still has to deal with the consequences of his decision. It isn't for you (Lawrence) to determine the punishment deserved, but thats a matter best left to a judge and jury. You can testify that you forgive him and that you feel he deserves a second chance and no jail time at the trial, but let the law and society decide how justice should best be served. Justice isn't just about the individual, its about society as a whole. He violated the social contract that we all agree to when we live in a civilization.

My question for all of those on this side is what is the difference between him spending time in prison and him paying his debt, doing community service and having his license suspended for say a year or so? Yes, he committed a crime. Yes, he did a horrible thing to another human being. But what do you think prison is going to do that these other punishments won't, other than deprive some children of their father?

 

[Magic Man]

My mom once hit a cat with her car. She stopped and cried over that cat's body and then went over to the neighbors house and confessed to accidentally hitting that cat. The point is that my mother showed more care for that animal than this fellow did for another human being... I think he deserves to answer for this.

That's a completely different situation, though. I'm not saying what this guy did was good, obviously. What he did was horrible. However, there's no fear of any real consequences in telling someone you accidentally hit their pet. First of all, it's impossible to prove it was the driver's fault and not the animal's for running in the way. Second of all, you're not going to jail or even doing community service or losing your license for hitting an animal. You're probably not going to get ay penalty at all. It's a whole lot easier to admit to a bad mistake when you're not going to get punished. You can't compare hitting someone's pet to hitting a person, as far as the driver's reaction to the situation.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I think it's just the right thing to do to admit to a mistake, Matt. Punishment or not.

The driver took off, leaving Lawrence to bleed in the street. That could have been one of my kids that was hit and left to die.

I do think Lawrence is noble in his intentions, and I applaud his forgiveness. But I don't believe his forgiveness should stand in the way of ensuring protection for the rest of society.

I, too, had a very similar experience of what Kathryn went through. I didn't press charges against the man who sexually assaulted me, and he went on to rape another woman who had the courage to press charges against him. He eventually did time for his actions and ensured that he would not commit the same crime against another.

I have managed several businesses in different industries, and I've seen people of all stripes try to give me the burden of their struggles..."give me a break, Heather, I'm going through a divorce....I lost my job....my teenager is going to have a baby....I'm bipolar...."

I can have personal compassion for them without injecting my spiritual walk into what should be blind justice. If we're doing business together and shake hands, sign a contract, we both must hold up our ends of the agreement.

Things might be difficult for them, but who's to say that my own life is sugar and roses? And yet I'm expected to cowboy up regardless of the circumstances, so should the other party.

Segue back to Lawrence. This driver did not just do something bad...it was criminal. It was reprehensible. Lawrence could have been hurt so badly he could have died, and that driver ran away.

I once caused a fender bender in a parking lot. I was in a hurry to go to work, but I caused damage to another person's property. So I called my insurance agent, and waited for the owner to come back outside. He came
outside, was REALLY angry, cursed me out, we exchanged information, and my agent offered estimates of repair that was less than his estimates.

I was reprimanded heavily at work. That stung.

I also paid out $400 for the guy's repair. That was $400 that I budgeted for my own medical bills. That was REALLY painful.

But in the end, it was the right thing to do. And the guy that at first was very angry with me was grateful that I followed through with making things right. Not by what HE thought was right, either.

So, maybe that's why I don't have a lot of patience with people who hit-and-run.....and especially when a human being is hit. He needed to own up, and if he needs to own up for hitting Lawrence AND for taking off, then that should be the right thing to do.

 

[Magic Man]

I think it's just the right thing to do to admit to a mistake, Matt. Punishment or not.

I agree. I wouldn't imply that it's not. If you're referring to the comparison of hitting a pet, I'm obviously not saying you should hit a person and run. You should always stay and get help. But the two situations are completely different.

I do think Lawrence is noble in his intentions, and I applaud his forgiveness. But I don't believe his forgiveness should stand in the way of ensuring protection for the rest of society.

Well, of course it shouldn't. I don't think this is a question of ensuring the protection of the rest of society. The guy made a mistake. He should pay certain consequences. What I'm wondering is what is the difference between the punishment of community service, having his license suspended or revoked and paying the medical bills and the punishment of going to prison? How is going to prison going to ensure the protection of society where not letting him drive and forcing him to do community service isn't?

I, too, had a very similar experience of what Kathryn went through. I didn't press charges against the man who sexually assaulted me, and he went on to rape another woman who had the courage to press charges against him. He eventually did time for his actions and ensured that he would not commit the same crime against another.

I don't think this is at all comparable, though. This is a different crime. Rape is a crime that requires different reactions than a hit-and-run. You should always press charges for rape. Pressing charges for a hit-and-run can be the right way to go too. And if that's the only way to make sure the criminal suffers some kind of consequences, then I agree it's the way to go. What I'm saying is that going a different route to get different consequences would be a good way to go, too, if it's likely to work out right.

If Lawrence has to press charges for the driver to be forced to pay anything or suffer any punishment at all, then I think he should press charges. If there is another way to force the driver to perform community service, pay all the medical bills and have a suspended license, I think that's the way to go.

A rapist and a driver who hits someone and runs are two completely different cases.

I have managed several businesses in different industries, and I've seen people of all stripes try to give me the burden of their struggles..."give me a break, Heather, I'm going through a divorce....I lost my job....my teenager is going to have a baby....I'm bipolar...."

I can have personal compassion for them without injecting my spiritual walk into what should be blind justice. If we're doing business together and shake hands, sign a contract, we both must hold up our ends of the agreement.

Things might be difficult for them, but who's to say that my own life is sugar and roses? And yet I'm expected to cowboy up regardless of the circumstances, so should the other party.

So, you won't bend the terms of a contract at all no matter what?

Segue back to Lawrence. This driver did not just do something bad...it was criminal. It was reprehensible. Lawrence could have been hurt so badly he could have died, and that driver ran away.

I once caused a fender bender in a parking lot. I was in a hurry to go to work, but I caused damage to another person's property. So I called my insurance agent, and waited for the owner to come back outside. He came
outside, was REALLY angry, cursed me out, we exchanged information, and my agent offered estimates of repair that was less than his estimates.

I was reprimanded heavily at work. That stung.

I also paid out $400 for the guy's repair. That was $400 that I budgeted for my own medical bills. That was REALLY painful.

But in the end, it was the right thing to do. And the guy that at first was very angry with me was grateful that I followed through with making things right. Not by what HE thought was right, either.

So, maybe that's why I don't have a lot of patience with people who hit-and-run.....and especially when a human being is hit. He needed to own up, and if he needs to own up for hitting Lawrence AND for taking off, then that should be the right thing to do.

OK, let's break this down:

1) If you hit someone or someone's property with your car, you should stop and do whatever you need to do to rectify the situation. If it's hitting someone's car in a parking lot, that could just be leaving your info to take care of it later. If it's hitting a person, that means stopping and getting any help necessary and letting the proper authorities know what happened.

2) Of course he should own up to what he did. I think we can all agree on that. You should always take responsibility for anything you do wrong, especially something like this.

I don't think anyone here is claiming nothing should happen to this guy or anything. The argument is whether prison is necessary, or whether another punishment would be suitable. I agree that if charges need to be pressed for anything to happen to the driver, then that's what Lawrence should do, regardless of the kids. But if he has the option to not press charges and instead come to a deal where the guy pays all the medical bills, does community service and has his license suspended or revoked, I think that's a better idea. The big difference is just in the exact nature of the punishment, not whether or not there should be one.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I agree. I wouldn't imply that it's not. If you're referring to the comparison of hitting a pet, I'm obviously not saying you should hit a person and run. You should always stay and get help. But the two situations are completely different.

Specifically, I agree. But under a general context, no. I think they're generally the same.

Well, of course it shouldn't. I don't think this is a question of ensuring the protection of the rest of society. The guy made a mistake. He should pay certain consequences. What I'm wondering is what is the difference between the punishment of community service, having his license suspended or revoked and paying the medical bills and the punishment of going to prison? How is going to prison going to ensure the protection of society where not letting him drive and forcing him to do community service isn't?

I think the justice system ought to figure that one out. Not Lawrence, or you, or I.

I don't think this is at all comparable, though. This is a different crime. Rape is a crime that requires different reactions than a hit-and-run. You should always press charges for rape. Pressing charges for a hit-and-run can be the right way to go too. And if that's the only way to make sure the criminal suffers some kind of consequences, then I agree it's the way to go. What I'm saying is that going a different route to get different consequences would be a good way to go, too, if it's likely to work out right.

Perhaps, but again, my point is that I don't think that's ultimately up for you or me to decide, but someone emotionally removed from the situation and people who are dedicated to administrating justice when a crime has been committed.

If Lawrence has to press charges for the driver to be forced to pay anything or suffer any punishment at all, then I think he should press charges. If there is another way to force the driver to perform community service, pay all the medical bills and have a suspended license, I think that's the way to go.

A rapist and a driver who hits someone and runs are two completely different cases.

Gotcha.

So, you won't bend the terms of a contract at all no matter what?

Never said that. I do say, though, that when I do, I open up a can of worms that I better be prepared for.

I have found that often people try however they can to get out of paying for services when they think they have a chance to get it for free. In other words, like it or not, my business has been screwed more than once by customers who have given me their word in the past.

This is not to say that I can't or won't ever rework the terms of service, but I do realize what I'm putting out on the table and what I'm risking......which is why I have a good team of attorneys now.

OK, let's break this down:

1) If you hit someone or someone's property with your car, you should stop and do whatever you need to do to rectify the situation. If it's hitting someone's car in a parking lot, that could just be leaving your info to take care of it later. If it's hitting a person, that means stopping and getting any help necessary and letting the proper authorities know what happened.

2) Of course he should own up to what he did. I think we can all agree on that. You should always take responsibility for anything you do wrong, especially something like this.

I don't think anyone here is claiming nothing should happen to this guy or anything. The argument is whether prison is necessary, or whether another punishment would be suitable. I agree that if charges need to be pressed for anything to happen to the driver, then that's what Lawrence should do, regardless of the kids. But if he has the option to not press charges and instead come to a deal where the guy pays all the medical bills, does community service and has his license suspended or revoked, I think that's a better idea. The big difference is just in the exact nature of the punishment, not whether or not there should be one.

OK.

Then who is best fit to offer the solution? Lawrence? His family? Or the court? Lawrence can press charges, but it doesn't mean that the guy will automatically get prison. They can be dropped per the decision of the judge/jury, can't they?

And how can Lawrence be sure that the guy will follow through with paying his bills? By a contract? If he doesn't follow through, he'll have to take him to court anyway to sue him for the bill payments.

That's why personally, I think it's best left in the hands of the justice system to decide how best to determine what the guy's punishment is.

 

[Magic Man]

Specifically, I agree. But under a general context, no. I think they're generally the same.

Well, they're generally similar, yes. But there are big differences which mean you can't compare the two in a case like this.

Never said that. I do say, though, that when I do, I open up a can of worms that I better be prepared for.

I have found that often people try however they can to get out of paying for services when they think they have a chance to get it for free. In other words, like it or not, my business has been screwed more than once by customers who have given me their word in the past.

This is not to say that I can't or won't ever rework the terms of service, but I do realize what I'm putting out on the table and what I'm risking......which is why I have a good team of attorneys now.

OK, so there are times when it's OK to be lenient or change the way things are done due to circumstances. That's what I'm getting at.

OK.

Then who is best fit to offer the solution? Lawrence? His family? Or the court? Lawrence can press charges, but it doesn't mean that the guy will automatically get prison. They can be dropped per the decision of the judge/jury, can't they?

And how can Lawrence be sure that the guy will follow through with paying his bills? By a contract? If he doesn't follow through, he'll have to take him to court anyway to sue him for the bill payments.

That's why personally, I think it's best left in the hands of the justice system to decide how best to determine what the guy's punishment is.

That might be. As I said, if it's unlikely that he'll get what he wants out of it, then it's best just to press charges. I'm not opposed to him pressing charges. I just think it would be nice if the other option he mentioned was available. If that plan isn't going to work, after consultation with his lawyer, then I would default to pressing charges. I guess basically I'm saying my order of preference is:

1) The driver pays all the medical bills, has his license suspended for at least a year, and does a large amount of community service.
2) The driver goes to jail (and hopefully also pays the medical bills).
109) Nothing happens to the driver.

I made the last one 109 because it's obviously by far the worst option. If Lawrence is counseled that to make sure the last option doesn't happen, he needs to press charges, I think he should press charges.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Well, they're generally similar, yes. But there are big differences which mean you can't compare the two in a case like this.

But....but....but.....oh never mind.

OK, so there are times when it's OK to be lenient or change the way things are done due to circumstances. That's what I'm getting at.

Whoa there, cowboy. Let me be clear on this - I can change things with whatever terms of the contract that I wish, but it really is only with the presumption that the other party is upstanding and has integrity. But if they screwed me once already, I have to be EXTREMELY careful about how I work with him or her thereafter. They might feel sorry, cry, explain why they screwed me in the first place, but I still have to protect myself.

My heart might forgive them.

My head might tell me to usher in a third party to monitor whatever happens next.

And I'll work with both for my own personal and spiritual journey as well as for my own protection.

That might be. As I said, if it's unlikely that he'll get what he wants out of it, then it's best just to press charges. I'm not opposed to him pressing charges. I just think it would be nice if the other option he mentioned was available. If that plan isn't going to work, after consultation with his lawyer, then I would default to pressing charges. I guess basically I'm saying my order of preference is:

1) The driver pays all the medical bills, has his license suspended for at least a year, and does a large amount of community service.
2) The driver goes to jail (and hopefully also pays the medical bills).
109) Nothing happens to the driver.

I made the last one 109 because it's obviously by far the worst option. If Lawrence is counseled that to make sure the last option doesn't happen, he needs to press charges, I think he should press charges.

I don't disagree, Matt.

 

[Magic Man]

Whoa there, cowboy. Let me be clear on this - I can change things with whatever terms of the contract that I wish, but it really is only with the presumption that the other party is upstanding and has integrity. But if they screwed me once already, I have to be EXTREMELY careful about how I work with him or her thereafter. They might feel sorry, cry, explain why they screwed me in the first place, but I still have to protect myself.

My heart might forgive them.

My head might tell me to usher in a third party to monitor whatever happens next.

And I'll work with both for my own personal and spiritual journey as well as for my own protection.

I don't see how this opposes what I said. All I'm saying is that we agree that sometimes it's OK to rework a deal, and it's OK to take circumstances into consideration. Yes, you have to be careful, but there are times when compassion doesn't go against the obviously right way to handle things.

I don't disagree, Matt.

I didn't think you would, Heather.

 

[InChrist]

I think there is validity to both perspectives: forgiveness and justice. The way Lawrence is showing forgiveness may speak louder than punishment to this man, if he is truly sorry. At the same time consequences are in order, although I think financial restitution to Lawrence and his family may be better and more productive than sitting in jail. Every situation is unique and I just pray that you, Lawrence, will be led to make the right decision.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't see how this opposes what I said. All I'm saying is that we agree that sometimes it's OK to rework a deal, and it's OK to take circumstances into consideration. Yes, you have to be careful, but there are times when compassion doesn't go against the obviously right way to handle things.

Not sure what else to say here. Maybe we see more eye to eye than I'm suspecting. Maybe not. I dunno.

Bottom line - Lawrence was hurt. Badly. Not only do I want to make sure he doesn't get hurt again, but I don't want anyone else getting hurt by this guy. I do need to take myself out of this debate, though, since it's resurfaced some old crap from the past that I thought I'd already moved on from. Maybe I'm simply reacting to that. Maybe I'm speaking from wisdom. But in any case, I needed to speak my mind in the hope that Lawrence will be okay however this turns out.

So here's a Big Squishy Hug. Just because.

 

[Magic Man]

Not sure what else to say here. Maybe we see more eye to eye than I'm suspecting. Maybe not. I dunno.

Bottom line - Lawrence was hurt. Badly. Not only do I want to make sure he doesn't get hurt again, but I don't want anyone else getting hurt by this guy. I do need to take myself out of this debate, though, since it's resurfaced some old crap from the past that I thought I'd already moved on from. Maybe I'm simply reacting to that. Maybe I'm speaking from wisdom. But in any case, I needed to speak my mind in the hope that Lawrence will be okay however this turns out.

I'm sorry for bringing up unwanted stuff. I think we completely agree. I don't want to see Lawrence or anyone else get hurt. If pressing charges is the only thing guaranteed to make that happen, I'm all for it. I was just hoping that from the OP, there might be a better option than sending him to prison.

So here's a Big Squishy Hug. Just because.

Thanks! And to you as well.

 

[Kathryn]

I think there is validity to both perspectives: forgiveness and justice. The way Lawrence is showing forgiveness may speak louder than punishment to this man, if he is truly sorry. At the same time consequences are in order, although I think financial restitution to Lawrence and his family may be better and more productive than sitting in jail. Every situation is unique and I just pray that you, Lawrence, will be led to make the right decision.

My concern though is this - the guy didn't turn himself in. He had no intention of restitution or even of admitting that he had left another human to die in the street. Good grief - that's callous!

I have no doubt the man is sorry - sorry he got caught. He may also be sorry that his capture and punishment may now affect his kids. I don't doubt that he's suffering from regret and remorse - haven't all of us felt that way at some time or another - AFTER we were caught doing something and we and our loved ones were feeling the ramifications?

Yes, we can all relate, but I doubt that most of us would have done something so cold as driving away while our victim lay writhing in the street.

Lawrence is too close to the situation to be objective. As Mystic said, let the courts decide what is best for SOCIETY. It's not just Lawrence's situation that hangs in the balance here.

 

[Iti oj]

You could always ask for leniency in sentencing...

 

[Godwilling]

I was thinking now (and what I've been suggesting to my attorney) is just to revoke his license, make him do some community service on our univ and make him pay expenses that my parents had spent when I was hospitalized (they're saving that money so that they have something to use when they are already old).

I agree with you. Jail simply costs society money in the short and long run. What you are suggesting is called "restorative justice", and most native Americans used to practice it before "the all knowing Europeans" imposed the "revenge system", which we now have.

I would make sure that the restitution includes pain and suffering as well as "opportunity costs". This will teach him and his children Forgiveness, and civic responsibility.

Good for you!

 

[waitasec]

I think there is validity to both perspectives: forgiveness and justice. The way Lawrence is showing forgiveness may speak louder than punishment to this man, if he is truly sorry. At the same time consequences are in order, although I think financial restitution to Lawrence and his family may be better and more productive than sitting in jail. Every situation is unique and I just pray that you, Lawrence, will be led to make the right decision.

whether he is truly sorry or not is of no consequence...
the deed was done. lawrence dealt with it. move on.