Those who don't believe in hell

[Skwim]

Yes, the same One that also rescued the Hebrews from over 400 years of slavery from the people that would rather all their cattle die than release their slaves.

But killing innocent children???? Come on. This is god, who could do anything he wanted, even sparing innocent children. Yet he chose not to.

Then we have the incident recorded in Genesis 19:23-26.when

23 Lot was entering the town as the sun came up, 24 and the Lord began to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. He caused fire and burning sulfur to fall from the sky. 25 He destroyed the whole valley—all the cities, the people living in the cities, and all the plants in the valley.​

But this isn't all of the story. This merciful and compassionate god, who didn't blink at killing children and newborns, was so ashamed of destroying the two cities that he didn't want any surviving eye witnesses. In fact, he even issued a warning in Genesis 19:17 to those he granted escape.

“Now run to save your life! Don’t look back at the city, and don’t stop anywhere in the valley. Run until you are in the mountains. If you stop, you will be destroyed with the city!”
​

And he meant it, which we find out when

26 Lot’s wife was following behind him and looked back at the city. When she did, she became a block of salt.
​

Crazy? You bet!

​

 

[Sand Dancer]

How much you are sure that you're right ?
are you 100% sure that the hell fire doesn't exist and if yes then why ?

Did you think for awhile that the hell fire may exist ?

Will you feel regret if you found yourself in the hell fire afterlife or you won't care about it ?

Where is hell? Who made the concept up because it's not biblical.

 

[FearGod]

Well, that's a first. A Muslim saying that Islam is not the one true religion.

I said the true religion for me, not necessarily for you, IOW Islam can't be the true religion
for a drug addict and a rapist...etc, hope my point is clear by now.

 

[Parsimony]

I said the true religion for me, not necessarily for you, IOW Islam can't be the true religion
for a drug addict and a rapist...etc, hope my point is clear by now.

So what religion should a drug addict or rapist to follow if not Islam?

 

[FearGod]

So what religion does God want a drug addict or rapist to follow if not Islam?

I have to ask him first and when he tells me i'll let you know.

 

[HekaMa'atRa]

How certain am I that the monotheistic conceptions of hell does't exist? 99.99% certain.

A general understanding of the history of religions would confirm this.

 

[illykitty]

That means no religion can success without the hell in order for people to be feared and to accept it.

Well I see it differently, to me, it means *some* religions might have more success because they make people scared. There are lots of religions without hell and they are still existing. My own path doesn't involve punishment. I believe a truly good person doesn't need threats to be good. A good person would do it simply because it is the right thing to do, because they have no desire to harm others and would want to be treated the same way.

And if you found yourself in the paradise because you were a good person and then you heard that
Hitler is in the hell because he caused the death of millions of people, will you question God as of
why Hitler is in the hell or you won't care.

Then I would wonder why god didn't just let him be dead. Just not exist. I don't think revenge achieves anything. It doesn't make a difference to the crimes he committed. It doesn't help anyone. Removing someone so that they don't cause further harm is fine though.

 

[Parsimony]

I have to ask him first and when he tells me i'll let you know.

I'm surprised the Koran doesn't have an answer to that.

That means no religion can success without the hell in order for people to be feared and to accept it.

Plenty of successful religions don't include the concept of eternal fire after death for the unrighteous. Jehovah's Witnesses don't, paganism doesn't, and I'm pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism don't either. I'd also consider it pretty shallow if the reason that someone turned to a religion is out of fear and not out of reason.

 

[FearGod]

I'm surprised the Koran doesn't have an answer to that.

Why ?

Plenty of successful religions don't include the concept of eternal fire after death for the unrighteous. Jehovah's Witnesses don't, paganism doesn't, and I'm pretty sure Hinduism and Buddhism don't either. I'd also consider it pretty shallow if the reason that someone turned to a religion is out of fear and not out of reason.

That's my point, Islam didn't spread because of the word hell, it looks silly to think so.
Punishment doesn't mean that the bad people will become a good ones, gangsters
do exist regardless of severe punishment which is made to protect the good ones.

 

[Shad]

How much you are sure that you're right ?
are you 100% sure that the hell fire doesn't exist and if yes then why ?

I have no reason nor seen evidence provided by those making the claim that Hell exists.

Did you think for awhile that the hell fire may exist ?

It could but the probability I assign to it is extremely low

Will you feel regret if you found yourself in the hell fire afterlife or you won't care about it ?

Depends on why I am there. If it is due to just a lack of belief then I will regret nothing since the God sending me there is malicious. If I am there due to acts like murder, and I accept my guilt, then I would regret the act.

 

[Draka]

Why ?



That's my point, Islam didn't spread because of the word hell, it looks silly to think so.
Punishment doesn't mean that the bad people will become a good ones, gangsters
do exist regardless of severe punishment which is made to protect the good ones.

I believe the point is different. The point was made that the concept of hell or punishment makes people easier to control. That is, there are religions that don't impose a hell-like afterlife and they are less restrictive and controlling of what people do, yet bring a spirituality and peace to the people that follow them. Of the religions that do hold to a hellish afterlife one can usually easily see that they are more controlling, restrictive religions. There are an order of clergy, leaders, places of worship and more that tend to benefit from the flock mentality of their followers. It is easier to tell people what to do, how to live, what to wear, how to speak and so on if they live with a faith that tells them if they do not they will be punished severely. It is this type of belief, this mentality, that makes theocracies succeed in certain places. You would not see this type of theocratical rule with religions that did not have some sort of severe punishment inherent within them. Thus...the perpetuation of a belief in hell and the "rightness" of that particular religion upon people makes them easier to control in general.

 

[FearGod]

I believe the point is different. The point was made that the concept of hell or punishment makes people easier to control. That is, there are religions that don't impose a hell-like afterlife and they are less restrictive and controlling of what people do, yet bring a spirituality and peace to the people that follow them. Of the religions that do hold to a hellish afterlife one can usually easily see that they are more controlling, restrictive religions. There are an order of clergy, leaders, places of worship and more that tend to benefit from the flock mentality of their followers. It is easier to tell people what to do, how to live, what to wear, how to speak and so on if they live with a faith that tells them if they do not they will be punished severely. It is this type of belief, this mentality, that makes theocracies succeed in certain places. You would not see this type of theocratical rule with religions that did not have some sort of severe punishment inherent within them. Thus...the perpetuation of a belief in hell and the "rightness" of that particular religion upon people makes them easier to control in general.

That can be correct if they'll be punished while on earth, IOW if you aren't a believer then
we are ordered by the almighty God to burn you alive and the same will be done into you
for eternity in the judgement day, that if it was meant to control the people for a purpose,
fearing them of a thing that they can't see or observe doesn't make sense and even looks silly.

 

[Draka]

That can be correct if they'll be punished while on earth, IOW if you aren't a believer then
we are ordered by the almighty God to burn you alive and the same will be done into you
for eternity in the judgement day, that if it was meant to control the people for a purpose,
fearing them of a thing that they can't see or observe doesn't make sense and even looks silly.

Yet it is exactly what is done. Take a book of mythological scripture, put a charismatic voice in front of people to preach it's "truth" and the convinced are easier to lead. Promise of reward and punishment in the hereafter if you follow what you are instructed to do makes pulling people's strings very easy to do. And it is done. Over and over. A little charisma, a little inventive interpretation, a twist here and there on how to get to one place or another, and you have instant puppet control. If a religion is more self-guiding, with no arbitrary promise of reward or punishment, then people are self-controlling. Beliefs in karma and reincarnation and so on rather than "heaven" or "hell" lead a person to spiritual self-control. Not outside control. Where there is a belief in punishment, where a path instills a fear, there is the ability to control. And people DO capitalize on that.

 

[FearGod]

Yet it is exactly what is done. Take a book of mythological scripture, put a charismatic voice in front of people to preach it's "truth" and the convinced are easier to lead. Promise of reward and punishment in the hereafter if you follow what you are instructed to do makes pulling people's strings very easy to do. And it is done. Over and over. A little charisma, a little inventive interpretation, a twist here and there on how to get to one place or another, and you have instant puppet control. If a religion is more self-guiding, with no arbitrary promise of reward or punishment, then people are self-controlling. Beliefs in karma and reincarnation and so on rather than "heaven" or "hell" lead a person to spiritual self-control. Not outside control. Where there is a belief in punishment, where a path instills a fear, there is the ability to control. And people DO capitalize on that.

Now you have another story than controlling and which is why the reward is needed for a person
to be good, be good for your own and don't expect a reward for it, right

 

[Draka]

Now you have another story than controlling and which is why the reward is needed for a person
to be good, be good for your own and don't expect a reward for it, right

Why not? Why should someone expect to be rewarded for doing the right thing or being a good person? Shouldn't the feeling one has, the peace they have, the pride they have in themselves be enough? But, no, in the religions that speak of heaven and hell that is also a "sin" isn't it? Pride is a no-no. Such religions teach that you must behave a certain way in life to attain this "reward" and if you don't do these exact things you will be suffering severely in your "punishment". Bait and fear, bait and fear. How does that not speak of control?

 

[FearGod]

Why not? Why should someone expect to be rewarded for doing the right thing or being a good person? Shouldn't the feeling one has, the peace they have, the pride they have in themselves be enough? But, no, in the religions that speak of heaven and hell that is also a "sin" isn't it? Pride is a no-no. Such religions teach that you must behave a certain way in life to attain this "reward" and if you don't do these exact things you will be suffering severely in your "punishment". Bait and fear, bait and fear. How does that not speak of control?

Why you do good in school and in your job ?
Do you need the reward and motivation to be a good worker or you just do it not expecting any reward ?
I agree that people may do good things not expecting a reward but whats wrong if we'll have a reward
for it ?

 

[Draka]

Why you do good in school and in your job ?
Do you need the reward and motivation to be a good worker or you just do it not expecting any reward ?
I agree that people may do good things not expecting a reward but whats wrong if we'll have a reward
for it ?

I don't see the purpose of rewarding being a decent person or good worker (other than the pay one earns of course), going above and beyond what is required of being that decent person is, however, something which may be rewarded. Hellfire and brimstone, torture and punishment, eternally or even at a restricted amount does what though? Nothing. If life is a one shot thing and you do not follow certain arbitrary strict rules of a certain religion throughout it what does a hell accomplish? Nothing. Does it teach a person where they screwed up? No. Does it give a chance for restitution? No. Does it serve any other purpose other than cruel and twisted vengeance for a petty deity which may or may not exist? Just one. To elicit fear and compliance.

 

[FearGod]

I don't see the purpose of rewarding being a decent person or good worker (other than the pay one earns of course), going above and beyond what is required of being that decent person is, however, something which may be rewarded.

You agree that there's no problem with rewarding and motivation.

Hellfire and brimstone, torture and punishment, eternally or even at a restricted amount does what though? Nothing. If life is a one shot thing and you do not follow certain arbitrary strict rules of a certain religion throughout it what does a hell accomplish? Nothing. Does it teach a person where they screwed up? No. Does it give a chance for restitution? No. Does it serve any other purpose other than cruel and twisted vengeance for a petty deity which may or may not exist? Just one. To elicit fear and compliance.

Do you worry about the future of the bad people on the afterlife ? why you're worried about them
and that there's no need to punish them at all ?

Do you feel sad that people are dying here and there because of wars and some others by hunger ?
We're here on earth and not in the next life, what will make you worry about bad people punished by
their creator ? why it's an important issue for you while you're a good person ?

 

[Parsimony]

Why ?

I figured it would say something along the lines of everyone needing to come to Islam if they wanted salvation.

That's my point, Islam didn't spread because of the word hell, it looks silly to think so.
Punishment doesn't mean that the bad people will become a good ones, gangsters
do exist regardless of severe punishment which is made to protect the good ones.

Okay then, perhaps I misunderstood your statement.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I am not convinced hell exists, and I do not feel I have enough reason to believe it does. The possibility that it does and the seriousness of me being in hell doesn't change that I do not have belief in hell.
This is a thin line to Pascal's Wager, where the begged question is 'should I pretend to believe in something I do not just to get a desirable outcome?' My answer is no. Both because that's not being honest with myself and, on the off chance there is a god out there as described by Christianity or Islam or Judaism, that god is described as not appreciating lip service anyway. The problem is I don't see any particular reason to believe those religions are true, and trying to threaten me with eternal torment doesn't persuade me