Tired of being called a sinner?

[J Bryson]

If he's right and Christianity is true though, you can't deny that he's using the best arguement ever.

(Note, I'm not trying to defend him, but it does seem like Christianity is trashed a bit too much on this forrum, which is geared at religious people.)

That's the thing: He's not using the best argument ever. He's speaking in circles.

I will not trash Christianity. I adore the teachings of Jesus, especially in Mark 12:28-31 (It brings a tear to my eye every time I read the beauty of those words), and in the Sermon on the Mount.

However, what Know The Truth is doing has little to do with the Christianity of Jesus, and everything to do with the various creeds that came later.

 

[DarkMaster24]

That's the thing: He's not using the best argument ever. He's speaking in circles.

I will not trash Christianity. I adore the teachings of Jesus, especially in Mark 12:28-31 (It brings a tear to my eye every time I read the beauty of those words), and in the Sermon on the Mount.

However, what Know The Truth is doing has little to do with the Christianity of Jesus, and everything to do with the various creeds that came later.

Oh. I see.

By the way, I guess I assumed that he was using Biblical arguements, like arguements centered arround Christ. That's what I meant when I said that he was using the best arguement ever.

Yeah, Christianity definately does have some good morals to teach and I'm glad you're not insulting it. I'm sorry for assuming you were.

My bad, for some reason, even though I just wread a few posts, I thought he was defending and advocating for Christianity. This is what I get for assuming..

 

[challupa]

You really ought not do that, Challupa. You see what happens when you do?

Yeah no kidding! We go from a topic of being a sinner to homosexuality. How did that happen and what does that have to do with sinning???

 

[challupa]

Oh. I see.

By the way, I guess I assumed that he was using Biblical arguements, like arguements centered arround Christ. That's what I meant when I said that he was using the best arguement ever.

Yeah, Christianity definately does have some good morals to teach and I'm glad you're not insulting it. I'm sorry for assuming you were.

My bad, for some reason, even though I just wread a few posts, I thought he was defending and advocating for Christianity. This is what I get for assuming..

He actually said on another thread that he hates religion. So in some ways he has confused me with all his outright attacks and unequivical statements that everyone knows God and everyone knows they are a sinner.

 

[Alceste]

Sorry to blow your cover, but there are no atheists. You know there is a moral God. It is obvious just by the world He has created. It SHOUTS that there is a Designer. You simply "supress the truth in unrighteousness," as Paul, the former Christian hunter so eloquently stated it. If you really admitted God was there, you would have to do something about it (unless you had lost ALL integrity), AND YOU DONT WANT TO ALLIGN YOUR LIFE WITH A MORAL GOD! Therefore He doesn't exist! You can go to the bank on that statement.

 

[Alceste]

Oh. I see.

By the way, I guess I assumed that he was using Biblical arguements, like arguements centered arround Christ. That's what I meant when I said that he was using the best arguement ever.

Yeah, Christianity definately does have some good morals to teach and I'm glad you're not insulting it. I'm sorry for assuming you were.

My bad, for some reason, even though I just wread a few posts, I thought he was defending and advocating for Christianity. This is what I get for assuming..

No, Know the Truth has never read the bible, and probably knows very little about any biblical scripture that hasn't been whipped out fortune-cookie style by his preacher. This is pretty evident from his insistence the Bible is a flawless or coherent record of the word of God. Anyone who has read it (Christians included) can tell you that's nonsense.

His ignorance and arrogance are doing Christianity more harm than any atheist critic could ever do.

The "best argument ever" for a Christian is to be a living example of humility, decency, charity, compassion and love. Who doesn't want a bite of that sandwich?

 

[J Bryson]

It shall come to pass that in the forthcoming days that a web shall be laid over the entire world, and people shall come to the web, and discuss many things, though mostly they shall come to satisfy the bestial lusts within their hearts.

And I say to you, go forth unto this web, and when you come to an unbeliever, you shall smite him with cunning arguments.

Many of these unbelievers shall withstand your words, and shall resist the truth of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. And to them, you shall build men of straw upon the web, and yea, you shall knock down the men of straw, as you would destroy any false idol.

And when they unbelievers cry, and wail, and gnash their teeth, saying "These are not arguments of truth, but of straw and dross," you shall take the goalposts that have been set, and you shall move them to another place, far from the eyes of those who do not believe.

And though it is only given unto the LORD to see what is in the hearts of the heretics and blasphemers, it is fine if you claim that you do, for even though they may have read the Gospels more thoroughly than you, and for longer periods of time, only you know what God really meant.

And while our Lord Jesus Christ warned us against vain repetitions, or praying too loudly in the streets, I say unto you, yea, you can just forget that for now, because he didn't mean it.

-The Letters Of The Apostle Troll to the Online Evangelists

 

[Alceste]

I learn all the time! But I am not going to pretend to need to learn things that are clearly in error.
Once you've been to Bali, no one can convince you it's not a beautiful place. Please excuse me if I don't pretend I never made the trip, just so I can appear teachable. I learn from those who have been there and pass it on. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

On the other hand, once somebody who is a barely functioning, broken, intolerable, faintly disturbing wreck of a man comes back from Bali saying "it's such a beautiful place! You have to go!" you might get a sense of what kind of a place Bali is that is not entirely in agreement with his glowing opinion.

Out of curiosity though, which is it? Have you made the trip, or do you learn from others who have been there?

 

[Wandered Off]

No, Know the Truth has never read the bible, and probably knows very little about any biblical scripture that hasn't been whipped out fortune-cookie style by his preacher. This is pretty evident from his insistence the Bible is a flawless or coherent record of the word of God. Anyone who has read it (Christians included) can tell you that's nonsense.

I can easily see how you'd think that, but let me tell you from personal experience it may not be true.

I read the Bible cover-to-cover several times and honestly believed that any discrepancy I found was a result of my own misunderstanding, not a flaw in God's word. Some people are truly taught to have little regard for their own critical thinking and instead to fear it as devil bait. If from childhood you're threatened with eternal Hell to think otherwise, it's a tool to reinforce self doubt and transfer all authority to the Bible and those who claim to understand it.

I wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't been there myself.

 

[Comicaze247]

If he's right and Christianity is true though, you can't deny that he's using the best arguement ever.

Agreed, as improbable as that is

(Note, I'm not trying to defend him, but it does seem like Christianity is trashed a bit too much on this forrum, which is geared at religious people.)

I don't think we trash Christianity, as the teachings of Jesus are wonderful. It's more that we trash the Christians who twist those teachings and really don't even understand what they're trying to preach, much less actually practicing it. (not naming names either . . . *cough*)

 

[Heneni]

So Heneni, what you are saying then is that unless you gave your life to Jesus 2000 years ago, there is no hope of anyone going to heaven. It's already a done deal, signed and sealed? If I am not "one of you chosen" then it doesn't much matter what I do anyway because I can't join the "chosen" ever. Have I got that right?

Sweetie. Salvation is not for sale. Its a gift yeh? So if its a gift you cannot join a club to get it. You cannot pay membership fee to get it. It was entirely gods choice who he chose to be saved. But he did forgive everybody.

He gave grace to some, but he gave mercy to all. What i do with the gift of salvation matter greatly. It matters because i should not trample on the gift. And mercy too...should be valued and appreciated.

If you have been chosen by god for salvation, there is no despute about your identity. Jesus said....whoever the father has given Him, shall in no way be lost. 'Lost' as in loose their salvation. Salvation is not something we strive for, it was a gift, nobody can strive for a gift. But the reason that we have been chosen is to be made into the likeness of his son, so that he may have many sons and daughters.

So, i would say, what you need to establish is if God gave you the gift. If he has, you shall come to Christ, since a shephard is loyal to his sheep and his sheep listen to his voice. If anybody LISTENS to his voice (which means they can hear it, either through the bible, or through people, or through their lives, or through art, music or any other means god chooses), you can know that they are saved.

It is useless to read the bible and think that that we know the person it speaks of. I can read a biography about you, but it does not mean i know you. I can read your biography and talk all day long about you. Does not mean i know you does it?

I know that if you have been chosen for salvation, that you WILL come to god. Is there anything he cannot do? Is there anybody that can fight against him and succeed?

Now, it becomes apparant, that people might be unhappy because he chose some and not others. And on occasion I might even want to feel like I need to oppologize that he chose me. But that would dishonour the giver of the gift. For some reason god chose the down and outers, the ones that the world think is a bit 'odd' and he gave them something that makes them precious.

The children of god find themselves in a foreign land, a world that they are passing through, and they have their hope on a different kingdom and a different world. In this world they are not accepted, if they were, they would be part of the world.

Salvation is a gift, precious indeed, but it does mean you will suffer for getting it. And so...when people talk about how unfair god was to give the gift to some and not to others, then god can simply say...are you willing to suffer because of this 'gift'? If you are...like Jesus did, like his children do...then you can be sure you have also been given the gift!

Heneni

 

[Alceste]

I can easily see how you'd think that, but let me tell you from personal experience it may not be true.

I read the Bible cover-to-cover several times and honestly believed that any discrepancy I found was a result of my own misunderstanding, not a flaw in God's word. Some people are truly taught to have little regard for their own critical thinking and instead to fear it as devil bait. If from childhood you're threatened with eternal Hell to think otherwise, it's a tool to reinforce self doubt and transfer all authority to the Bible and those who claim to understand it.

I wouldn't believe it either if I hadn't been there myself.

OK, but having read it cover to cover several times, would you now say there are no discrepancies? I've only read it from cover to [insert extremely boring begat sequence] to middle to [insert Paul's misogynistic rantings] to cover, and it took me one single evening to spot the fist glaring discrepancy, in the form of "Thou shalt not kill" (followed closely by "kill all those people, except the virgins, who you should rape").

My argument is that if you have read the bible cover to cover, it will be obvious there are discrepancies. My point is that you found discrepancies. Whether or not you struggled with them is your own business. The question is whether, having read the bible cover to cover, you would say something like "THERE ARE NO DISCREPANCIES!" on a public discussion forum?

 

[Wandered Off]

OK, but having read it cover to cover several times, would you now say there are no discrepancies?

No, but my beliefs have changed radically since those days.

The question is whether, having read the bible cover to cover, you would say something like "THERE ARE NO DISCREPANCIES!" on a public discussion forum?

Back then, I might have, because I was taught that anything that looked like a discrepancy was actually not a discrepancy but a flaw in my interpretation or understanding. That's absurd to me now, but I sincerely believed it for some years.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Back then, I might have, because I was taught that anything that looked like a discrepancy was actually not a discrepancy but a flaw in my interpretation or understanding. That's absurd to me now, but I sincerely believed it for some years.

Whoa, you better be careful with that slippery slope. First, you're believing that the bible has discrepancies - before you know it, you're snorting cocaine off of a gay hooker's butt while playing a Richard Dawkins book on tape backwards before performing an abortion on an underage, atheist, trangendered virgin.

 

[Alceste]

Back then, I might have, because I was taught that anything that looked like a discrepancy was actually not a discrepancy but a flaw in my interpretation or understanding. That's absurd to me now, but I sincerely believed it for some years.

Fair enough. It's just difficult for me to see how it would be possible not to spot the discrepancies in the Bible. That could be because I've never been anything but a critical thinker / discerning reader / logical person. Would you agree, though (having read the bible yourself) that it's a very difficult book, and probably beyond the literary aspirations of most vocal US fundamentalist readers? I mean, these are often people who can't even spell. People who have never claimed to read any other book.

There are a lot of reasons I assume people like Know the Truth haven't read it. Not only the fact that he doesn't seem to recognize the inconsistencies. I assume he hasn't read it because I've read it myself, and I don't think he's up for the challenge.

 

[J Bryson]

Whoa, you better be careful with that slippery slope. First, you're believing that the bible has discrepancies - before you know it, you're snorting cocaine off of a gay hooker's butt while playing a Richard Dawkins book on tape backwards before performing an abortion on an underage, atheist, trangendered virgin.

Or as we call it in my neighborhood, "Thursday".

 

[Wandered Off]

It's just difficult for me to see how it would be possible not to spot the discrepancies in the Bible.

Spotting them is easy. It's all the theological gymnastics you have to go through to rationalize them away that's the challenge, one I ultimately failed.

 

[challupa]

Sweetie. Salvation is not for sale. Its a gift yeh? So if its a gift you cannot join a club to get it. You cannot pay membership fee to get it. It was entirely gods choice who he chose to be saved. But he did forgive everybody.

He gave grace to some, but he gave mercy to all. What i do with the gift of salvation matter greatly. It matters because i should not trample on the gift. And mercy too...should be valued and appreciated.

If you have been chosen by god for salvation, there is no despute about your identity. Jesus said....whoever the father has given Him, shall in no way be lost. 'Lost' as in loose their salvation. Salvation is not something we strive for, it was a gift, nobody can strive for a gift. But the reason that we have been chosen is to be made into the likeness of his son, so that he may have many sons and daughters.

So, i would say, what you need to establish is if God gave you the gift. If he has, you shall come to Christ, since a shephard is loyal to his sheep and his sheep listen to his voice. If anybody LISTENS to his voice (which means they can hear it, either through the bible, or through people, or through their lives, or through art, music or any other means god chooses), you can know that they are saved.

It is useless to read the bible and think that that we know the person it speaks of. I can read a biography about you, but it does not mean i know you. I can read your biography and talk all day long about you. Does not mean i know you does it?

I know that if you have been chosen for salvation, that you WILL come to god. Is there anything he cannot do? Is there anybody that can fight against him and succeed?

Now, it becomes apparant, that people might be unhappy because he chose some and not others. And on occasion I might even want to feel like I need to oppologize that he chose me. But that would dishonour the giver of the gift. For some reason god chose the down and outers, the ones that the world think is a bit 'odd' and he gave them something that makes them precious.

The children of god find themselves in a foreign land, a world that they are passing through, and they have their hope on a different kingdom and a different world. In this world they are not accepted, if they were, they would be part of the world.

Salvation is a gift, precious indeed, but it does mean you will suffer for getting it. And so...when people talk about how unfair god was to give the gift to some and not to others, then god can simply say...are you willing to suffer because of this 'gift'? If you are...like Jesus did, like his children do...then you can be sure you have also been given the gift!

Heneni

Okay then, thanks for the answer.

 

[Alceste]

Spotting them is easy. It's all the theological gymnastics you have to go through to rationalize them away that's the challenge, one I ultimately failed.

Yeah! And one you were only in a position to "fail" because you read the whole book and really tried to understand it. IMO, "failure" to rationalize the Bible is written into the Bible itself, and is plainly evident to anyone who is able to read and understand it. This is why I think a huge contingent of nominal "Christians" haven't read it, or if they have, they haven't understood it.

I know for a fact the one guy I ever met IRL who claimed the Bible was the literal truth of God would have struggled with the Hobbit. He wasn't very literate. His idea of Bible study was poking his finger into a random spot and trying to relate whatever sentence he happened to find with whatever his preacher was telling him was "true".

 

[Heneni]

I'm not talking about your "God." I'm talking about you. You keep acting morally superior and saying that you know for sure that they are "piling up judgment for themselves." Meaning what? Your tone implies that because of their actions "God" will favor you over them. Who's judging that? Seems to me that you're making a judgment call yourself.

And it seems your "forgiveness" is tainted. "I forgive you, 'cause you're gonna go to hell anyway" is pretty much your tone.

God already favoured me. Not above anybody else, but the same as every other brother/sister I have. Umm....do you want me to say sorry that he did? What if he favoured you as well? Did he favour me, because i have brown eyes and dark hair? Did he favour me because he went eeny meeny miny mo? Shall i now spend the rest of my days thinking...now WHAT was it about me LORD that made you favoured me. Let me think...while I was still a sinner he saved me. Does not seem like there was anything particularly spectacular about me! Not at that time. But what about if god remembered me, when he first created me. When he formed my spirit, way back when he made me. What if I knew him, loved him, and was led astray by a sceaming, cunning and dubious character called satan? Did he choose me, because even when i was in prison, and powerless to get out of it, he remembered heneni, he remembered what i was like before my fall. What if he chose me, because even while i was a sinner and getting up to all sorts of mischief, i somehow longed to go back to my father? What if even though i was a sinner....he saw in me much potential, he saw in me what i could no longer see myself. What if...my heart was still longing to go back to heaven? What was god to do? He chose me, to save me. Even though what i had become was nothing like what i was before, he saved me to make me more than i had become and more than i was before.