Tired of the "why did God allow ……." posts.

[FearGod]

I don't think God converts anything by Himself….us included. I think He desires us to turn back to Him but He can't make man do it….nor angels. Does this answer your question?

Was there any evil before Lucifer ?

 

[Simplelogic]

Was there any evil before Lucifer ?

Not that we know of.

 

[Simplelogic]

God can turn rocks in to followers; it isn't hard for God to convert angels... It is all about free will.

Thus this is why we've got to question the reality, not God... We might be in a place close to hell; therefore why shouldn't everything be upside down?
Find this tendency of humans, not to want associate themselves as being the devil (slanderer) or satan (accuser) its self.

So what if we created evil, and for God to remove it, means removing some of us?

Now we are talking!

 

[FearGod]

Not that we know of.

Why then evil started with Lucifer as we know it ?

 

[Kolibri]

Why then evil started with Lucifer as we know it ?

Jesus said Satan was the father of the lie. From this we can infer that no one had an excuse to lie before the angel that turned himself into Satan did.

No one looked at something that did not belong to them with longing long enough to act on it. - James 1:14,15

 

[Simplelogic]

Why then evil started with Lucifer as we know it ?

The angels were given free will. This means God was hands off with them and allowed them to do what they wish. This is were evil came from in my opinion.

 

[Simplelogic]

Jesus said Satan was the father of the lie. From this we can infer that no one had an excuse to lie before the angel that turned himself into Satan did.

No one looked at something that did not belong to them with longing long enough to act on it.

A reasonable assumption in my view. But still, it is possible that God has done this many times before in hopes to create beings that choose to be good. Of course I can't confirm this…just saying.

 

[FearGod]

The angels were given free will. This means God was hands off with them and allowed them to do what they wish. This is were evil came from in my opinion.

do you think good and bad existed before creating Angels or only good first existed and then evil next ?

 

[wizanda]

Lucifer wasn't evil, unless we use Christian ideology..... Neither was the snake in the garden, unless we mix Christian and Islamic ideology.

The LORD asked Satan, "Where have you come from?" In response, Satan answered the LORD, "From wandering all over the earth and walking back and forth throughout it."

This is the first real reference to satan..... So clearly God didn't create it at the beginning.

We could include Enoch and Islamic thinking, that Azazel and Iblis rebelled against God.... Yet personally find that way of thinking stupid, it is like saying here is a being that has witnessed the vast magnitude of creation, understanding the underlying thinking behind it, and then to try to compete against that, with the vast amounts of wisdom angels have, beyond the comprehension of man.

It is far easier to comprehend that it is a man made view, that angels rebel, satan does, everything other than blaming ourselves for our own mistakes.

 

[FearGod]

Lucifer wasn't evil, unless we use Christian ideology..... Neither was the snake in the garden, unless we mix Christian and Islamic ideology.

This is the first real reference to satan..... So clearly God didn't create it at the beginning.

We could include Enoch and Islamic thinking, that Azazel and Iblis rebelled against God.... Yet personally find that way of thinking stupid, it is like saying here is a being that has witnessed the vast magnitude of creation, understanding the underlying thinking behind it, and then to try to compete against that, with the vast amounts of wisdom angels have, beyond the comprehension of man.

It is far easier to comprehend that it is a man made view, that angels rebel, satan does, everything other than blaming ourselves for our own mistakes.

According to the quran Angels obey God's commands and they were created differently than Jinns where the devil belong to.

 

[JayJayDee]

I don't believe that God is "everywhere" all the time. I do believe that God can be multiple places at the same time through His created angels which represent Him. Maybe omnipresence is the wrong word for my beliefs.

Omnipresence means God is everywhere at once. You are right, the Bible does not support that idea.

I disagree on God being "all knowing". Just because it says God is reading or discerning our thoughts does not mean He is in our heads.

Jesus also demonstrated the ability to read what was on someone's mind. Its not so much that he is in our heads but discerning where our actions are coming from. The inclination of the thoughts of the heart are more important to God than mere actions motivated by mindless compliance.

It isn't a matter of "do's and don'ts", it is a matter of understand why God says "do" or "don't" and agreeing wholeheartedly with it.

Most examples in the Tanakh refer to how closely God is watching our actions and listening to our words. This is how I believe He understands our thoughts.

Jesus demonstrated that his ability went further than that. e.g. With the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus knew all about her without anyone saying a word. Even she was astounded at his knowledge of her situation when she had never met him.

God is indeed judging us by our words and actions, but that is not the whole story. He says we must love him with all that we are.....he cannot legislate a condition of the heart. He cannot force us to love him, yet it is a requirement. He can read our heart along with our actions to see where the motivation comes from. Why we do something is more important to him than the action itself. This is the whole reason we have free will.

He is very wise and has intimate knowledge of our actions and can see through our hypocrisy. If you need examples of this I will provide.

I know the examples. But I think it goes further than what you assume. He is our Creator when all is said and done....how could he not know all there is to know about us? Seeing our actions and hearing our words is a only a small part of his knowledge of us. I believe that you are selling him short...giving him limitations that he clearly does not have.

 

[JayJayDee]

Don't agree with this logic. The concept that evil is needed in order for there to be good is pagan philosophy and has no place in the Hebrew text.

No, that is not what I said....I said that in everything there is an equal opposite. Science understands this....there is an equal offsite of good that exists because it must, but God was going to shield his children from it as long as they trusted him as their God and Father. He did not make the knowledge impossible to access, but it was locked away behind a penalty so severe that only a fool would disobey. It took outright lies to convince the newby that God was holding something back that would make their lot in life even better than what he had provided. Satan did not target the man, but sought to get to him through his attachment to the woman.

Adam was his target all along. He waited for the perfect opportunity and then he struck while the woman was alone. As a Cherub in the garden, he was right there. He knew Adam would have to choose between the love of his God and the love of his life....he made the choice to side with her. And the sentence was pronounced and the penalty delivered once the mandate to "fill the earth" was well and truly under way. Adam's children were cursed with the defect he gained from his disobedience. Because a "day" to God is as a thousand years, no one has lived longer than one day in God's counting of time. They both died within that day, but so did all their children.

There is not a single reference to any remorse expressed by them and not a single sacrifice offered as an appeasement to their God. There was no excuse for their actions and perfect beings do not make mistakes...and they knew it. They made their decisions in full knowledge of the consequences. There was no basis to forgive them. This is why Adam and his wife will never see life again. Christ came to rescue their children, born in sin through no fault on their part.

I agree that God could choose to know if He wanted to. My argument is that He simply doesn't for whatever reason.

If we were not free willed beings God would always know what we were going to do and why. But free will makes us like God.....a fact that Adam and his wife did not appreciate. We are also 'creators' endowed with the ability to create new life and fill the earth with our kind. Had God's first purpose gone ahead, Adam and Eve would still be here enjoying paradise conditions with all their offspring.

Because he wants our attachment to be based on love and not fear, he allows us to make our decisions without interference from him. Good or bad...they are our choices made by us according the reasoning of our hearts. He will not stop us from being deluded if that is what we want to believe. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

 

[Simplelogic]

It isn't a matter of "do's and don'ts", it is a matter of understand why God says "do" or "don't" and agreeing wholeheartedly with it.

I agree fully with this.

 

[Simplelogic]

Jesus demonstrated that his ability went further than that. e.g. With the Samaritan woman at the well, Jesus knew all about her without anyone saying a word. Even she was astounded at his knowledge of her situation when she had never met him.

Lets look at this from another perspective. God communicated with Yeshua regularly through angelic visitations. These same angels have capabilities much greater than we do and could easily inform Yeshua about the Samaritan woman. I don't see this as proof for God knowing our thoughts personally.

 

[Kolibri]

Lets look at this from another perspective. God communicated with Yeshua regularly through angelic visitations. These same angels have capabilities much greater than we do and could easily inform Yeshua about the Samaritan woman. I don't see this as proof for God knowing our thoughts personally.

Because of their position deep in the body, the kidneys are among the most inaccessible organs. With good reason, therefore, the Scriptures use the Hebrew word kela-yohth' in a figurative sense to represent the deepest thoughts and emotions of one's personality.

"But Jehovah of armies judges with righteousness; He examines the innermost thoughts (or "deepest emotions," Lit., "kidneys.") and the heart." - Jeremiah 11:20a

"And you, Solomon my son, know that God of your father and serve him with a complete heart and with a delightful soul, for Jehovah searches through all the hearts, and he discerns every inclination of the thoughts. If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you, but if you leave him, he will reject you forever." - 1 Chronicles 28:9

 

[Simplelogic]

1“All the commandments that I am commanding you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your forefathers. 2“You shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.. Deut 8:1-2

This is one of many verses which suggest that God Himself does not know our thoughts. The Israelites had already seen God deliver them from Egypt with amazing signs and wonders. But still there was something that God didn't know about them. He didn't know whether they would really love Him and keep His commandments! So He decided to test them to see what was really in their hearts. Surly this test, like many others would not be needed if God could simply read our thoughts…He would already know!

 

[Simplelogic]

Because of their position deep in the body, the kidneys are among the most inaccessible organs. With good reason, therefore, the Scriptures use the Hebrew word kela-yohth' in a figurative sense to represent the deepest thoughts and emotions of one's personality.

"But Jehovah of armies judges with righteousness; He examines the innermost thoughts (or "deepest emotions," Lit., "kidneys.") and the heart." - Jeremiah 11:20a

I see this as His ability to intimately know His creation. He watches us, observes us and tests us to see what is in our hearts. Even the deepest parts.

 

[Simplelogic]

No, that is not what I said....I said that in everything there is an equal opposite.

This is exactly what I just said. No, I don't agree that in everything there is an equal opposite. This is pagan philosophy which Christianity has adopted over the years. Many eastern pagan religions promote this concept, like Taoism with its yin yang. Equal light and equal darkness. Good and evil are necessary companions…etc.

I'm not sure if you want to bring Paul into this argument. It can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Paul believed in an ultra sovereign view of God who micromanages free will and elects humans for salvation and destruction. Paul was one of the many who succumbed to pagan philosophy in the first century.

 

[Simplelogic]

According to the quran Angels obey God's commands and they were created differently than Jinns where the devil belong to.

Don't most Muslims believe that the Jinn serve God as well? This is also true in mainstream Judaism. Though if one goes ONLY by the Hebrew text, this concept can't be proved. In fact, the exact opposite is true.

 

[Kolibri]

It can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Paul believed in an ultra sovereign view of God who micromanages free will and elects humans for salvation and destruction. Paul was one of the many who succumbed to pagan philosophy in the first century.

doubt here. but I expect we will get back to this eventually.