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To Be or Not To Be: your gender (Vivek R.)

Argentbear

Well-Known Member
I find this interview to be honest and factual. Peterson is an expert interviewer that asks great questions.

The reality that Europe has already backtracked their positions
That is not exactly true. In great Britton for example when the Cass Report first came out gender affirming care was all but wiped out but since then serious questions about the report and it's findings as well as a massive rise in suicidal behavior in young trans people prompted a return to gender affirming care model they did away with. The National Health System has replaced the "gender clinic" model with a new service model that focuses on holistic care and support. The NHS will provide psychosocial and psychological support, puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones in the teen years and surgery is available later in adulthood. The NHS will only commission gender-affirming hormones (GAH) therapy for young people who meet eligibility and readiness criteria. THe criteria is the very same one the Cass report claimed was unfounded in research. Turns out there is a great deal of research supporting it
and, here in the US, the current laws that are now addressing this issue only confirms the reality that many hospitals are simply interested in money and experimentation.
Well that is just more bull. State legislations in conservatives controlled states have passes a pile of laws based on political ideology and not best practice. Some of the laws include prosecuting parents who seek out psychiatric and medical consultation with charges of child abuse and some have passed laws making it legal for ANY medical professional to refuse to care for any trans person or child.
Statistically, most youth and children grow out of the “identity” crisis. Quite normal.
More bull i am afraid. what you are talking about is junk science created by recognized hate groups like the American College of Pediatrics. One of the more infamous fake studies they published interviewed adults who had been prescribed puberty blockers as children and found that 90% of them were not transgender. However 90% of puberty blockers are prescribed for the medical condition precocious puberty, puberty starting in early childhood at age 5 or 6. Its not surprising that 90% of the adults surveyed were no longer trans because they never were in the first place
Sterilization and mutilation of children is obviously wrong.
it is and that is why it isn't done despite many claims by conservatives.
Reactions to this truth if you confront it?

Always... attack, name calling, labeling and even authoritarian force.
yep that is pretty much what you did here
Thankful that whistleblowers continue to expose truth.
Dr. Eithan Haim isn't a whistle blower he broke into sealed records at a hospital he doesn't work at and altered records and then gave them to a right wing "journalist"
 

Argentbear

Well-Known Member
If you look at the theory of evolution, it involves natural selection and sexual reproduction to pass forward DNA. The DNA allows the advantage to move to the future. Conceptually, these dysphoria conditions, interfere with evolution, in the sense they eliminate the 2nd half or the reproductive ability to complete the evolutionary puzzle. That cannot be natural, unless the theory of evolution is wrong. Maybe those who work hard to support evolution can do the math for us.
Most individuals of a species don't pass on their DNA to the next generation. Only the alpha male and female of a wolf pack ever mate for example, the rest of the pack acts as caregivers to the wolf pups
You cannot have it both ways, which is common to the DNC. If a boy decided to become a girl; drugs and surgery, future reproduction is off the table, until science can game the system, that far. Science is not yet able to do the full game and make that illusion. Also, if it was not for science, to make the drugs and perform the new surgeries needed, this entire option would be a pipe dream; marketing brain wash. Without science, you cannot just undergo willful metamorphosis, in spite of your DNA.
Are we going to pretend that trans people didn't exist before modern medicine?
Gay and Lesbian became popular, before Trans science. They had to accept the physical reality of no metamorphosis. Therefore they adapt to their own physical and psychological reality.; dress up. They can still breed if they choose.
Popular? no Gays and lesbians started standing up to the people who chose to hate and persecute them and their families
To me trans is free market driven. It is a perfect scheme to make long term money; drugs, off the ignorance of young people.
And just who is making all this money?
Teachers had to sneak around behind parent's backs, since parents do not want the risk or the long term bill. Europe, which started this fad, is moving away, since the long term effect is not that bright. Children easily can get sucked into this fad and then latter in life, have regrets.
Schools are performing sex change operations during recess?
It is like getting a tattoo of you ex. After you separate, the tattoo starts to work against you, undermining moving forward. Be part of evolution, instead of unnatural selection, that voids evolution. Or change the Evolutionary theory to suit your needs.

If you look at Creationism, which is different from Evolution, Adam and Eve appear from nothing. They are created and did not evolve. They become the seed for the future of human evolution. This is closer to the medical induced dysphoria, since this fad is quite new and was/is a function of the state of the art in science. It was created by medical business people, because technology had reached a level, where it could be exploited to make money and create high paying jobs. Technology and money is the wild card left out of these discussions. It could not happen without these. It would stay a fantasy.
speaking of fantasies..
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That is not exactly true. In great Britton for example when the Cass Report first came out gender affirming care was all but wiped out but since then serious questions about the report and it's findings as well as a massive rise in suicidal behavior in young trans people prompted a return to gender affirming care model they did away with. The National Health System has replaced the "gender clinic" model with a new service model that focuses on holistic care and support. The NHS will provide psychosocial and psychological support, puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormones in the teen years and surgery is available later in adulthood. The NHS will only commission gender-affirming hormones (GAH) therapy for young people who meet eligibility and readiness criteria. THe criteria is the very same one the Cass report claimed was unfounded in research. Turns out there is a great deal of research supporting it

Although Great Britain is part of Europe, it isn’t Europe. Technically, you are correct but I was speaking generally.


Well that is just more bull. State legislations in conservatives controlled states have passes a pile of laws based on political ideology and not best practice. Some of the laws include prosecuting parents who seek out psychiatric and medical consultation with charges of child abuse and some have passed laws making it legal for ANY medical professional to refuse to care for any trans person or child.

Somewhat combative. Not even sure you addressed what I said.

More bull i am afraid. what you are talking about is junk science created by recognized hate groups like the American College of Pediatrics. One of the more infamous fake studies they published interviewed adults who had been prescribed puberty blockers as children and found that 90% of them were not transgender. However 90% of puberty blockers are prescribed for the medical condition precocious puberty, puberty starting in early childhood at age 5 or 6. Its not surprising that 90% of the adults surveyed were no longer trans because they never were in the first place

Highlighted is what I am saying… bullying.

Not sure exactly what you are saying. I’m saying that:

Cross-sex hormones carry side effects including sterility, increased risk of cardiovascular disease, and increased risk of breast and uterus cancers, and other harmful psychoactive effects of high-dose hormones such as mood swings and even psychosis, Laidlaw said.



yep that is pretty much what you did here

Just making a statement doesn’t make it so. Can you reference it?
 

Argentbear

Well-Known Member
Although Great Britain is part of Europe, it isn’t Europe. Technically, you are correct but I was speaking generally.

and a year later the handful of countries that did so have shifted back to the WPATH standard guidelines
Somewhat combative. Not even sure you addressed what I said.
you said: "US, the current laws that are now addressing this issue only confirms the reality that many hospitals are simply interested in money and experimentation"
and that remains bull. the legislation being passed is largely punitive and geared for publicity not best practice
Highlighted is what I am saying… bullying.
the American College of Pediatrics is a recognized hate group. 'm sorry you don't like that fact but it is

Not sure exactly what you are saying. I’m saying that:

Cross-sex hormones carry side effects including sterility, increased risk of cardiovascular disease, and increased risk of breast and uterus cancers, and other harmful psychoactive effects of high-dose hormones such as mood swings and even psychosis, Laidlaw said.

your link claims: "But a long-term study by the United Kingdom’s leading facility for treating gender-dysphoric children found otherwise. Contrary to common beliefs about puberty-blocking drugs, the majority of children who take them do not resume puberty."

Here is the study in question:
Short-term outcomes of pubertal suppression in a selected cohort of 12 to 15 year old young people with persistent gender dysphoria in the UK
Polly Carmichael et al. No where does it say children who stop taking puberty blockers don't resume puberty
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
and a year later the handful of countries that did so have shifted back to the WPATH standard guidelines

I wouldn’t know… I haven’t seen any.

you said: "US, the current laws that are now addressing this issue only confirms the reality that many hospitals are simply interested in money and experimentation"
and that remains bull. the legislation being passed is largely punitive and geared for publicity not best practice

That is an opinion of which I support your right to have one.
the American College of Pediatrics is a recognized hate group. 'm sorry you don't like that fact but it is

That sounds more like, “I don’t like their scientific position so I will label them a hate group because I can’t refute their position”.. Happens all the time. If you can’t refute the College of Pediatrics, you eliminate all their positions by simply labelling them. Unscientific response to a scientific reality.

Forget the mental issues it produces… just label them as “hate group” while they help chidren.

your link claims: "But a long-term study by the United Kingdom’s leading facility for treating gender-dysphoric children found otherwise. Contrary to common beliefs about puberty-blocking drugs, the majority of children who take them do not resume puberty."

So if they don’t resume puberty, what does that mean?


Here is the study in question:
Short-term outcomes of pubertal suppression in a selected cohort of 12 to 15 year old young people with persistent gender dysphoria in the UK
Polly Carmichael et al. No where does it say children who stop taking puberty blockers don't resume puberty

It sounds like you just want to use puberty blockers with all of their side effects when most grow out of their identity issues.

why?
 

Argentbear

Well-Known Member
I wouldn’t know… I haven’t seen any.



That is an opinion of which I support your right to have one.
how big of you but legislation that criminalizes being a parent is punitive and not in anyone's best interest
That sounds more like, “I don’t like their scientific position so I will label them a hate group because I can’t refute their position”.. Happens all the time. If you can’t refute the College of Pediatrics, you eliminate all their positions by simply labelling them. Unscientific response to a scientific reality.
The American College of Pediatricians is a fringe anti-LGBTQ hate group with less than 250 members, almost none of which are medical doctors. The ACP that uses it's similar name to the American Academy of Pediatrics to push anti-LGBTQ junk science, primarily via far-right conservative media and amicus briefs in cases related to civil rights.
You can look them up but i suspect you already have.

Since you bring up unscientific responses to scientific reality lets talk more about the study I referenced above written by ACP president Michelle Cretella. To remind you, since you ignored the study the first time, Cretella surveyed adults who were prescribed puberty blockers as children and concluded that 90% of such children did not identify as trans as adult it is "proof" that kids "grow out of" being trans. She ignored the fact that 90% of children who are prescribed puberty blockers were not trans in the first place but suffering from the medical condition precocious puberty.

Do you think this is a legitimate scientific study?





Forget the mental issues it produces… just label them as “hate group” while they help chidren.

How exactly is producing fake studies helping children?

So if they don’t resume puberty, what does that mean?
they do resume puberty when the medication stops that is the point. your link claims the opposite.
It sounds like you just want to use puberty blockers with all of their side effects when most grow out of their identity issues.

why?
What "all the side effects"? the study itself found only benefits to mantal health social adaption. the only negative side effect is that 7% of children show lowered bone density and that side effect is countered with a simple dietary supplement
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
how big of you but legislation that criminalizes being a parent is punitive and not in anyone's best interest

So… what you are saying here is that parents have the right to abuse their children and mutilate their bodies?

And what specific law are you talking about?

The American College of Pediatricians is a fringe anti-LGBTQ hate group with less than 250 members, almost none of which are medical doctors. The ACP that uses it's similar name to the American Academy of Pediatrics to push anti-LGBTQ junk science, primarily via far-right conservative media and amicus briefs in cases related to civil rights.
You can look them up but i suspect you already have.

OK… so I’m right. Put “hate group” and you don’t have to look at the science behind it. Got it. And now you add “fringe anti-LGBTQ” to the labeling.

You are doing exactly what I was saying when a person have a different perspective.

Since you bring up unscientific responses to scientific reality lets talk more about the study I referenced above written by ACP president Michelle Cretella. To remind you, since you ignored the study the first time, Cretella surveyed adults who were prescribed puberty blockers as children and concluded that 90% of such children did not identify as trans as adult it is "proof" that kids "grow out of" being trans. She ignored the fact that 90% of children who are prescribed puberty blockers were not trans in the first place but suffering from the medical condition precocious puberty.

No… let’s go a little further than recent “new pseudo-science”. How many people Gender Dysphoria… say in 2010, a mere 15 years ago.

Do you think this is a legitimate scientific study?

Please give me the site link again… I couldn’t find it.

How exactly is producing fake studies helping children?

EXACTLY! You took the question right out of my mouth.

they do resume puberty when the medication stops that is the point. your link claims the opposite.

What "all the side effects"? the study itself found only benefits to mantal health social adaption. the only negative side effect is that 7% of children show lowered bone density and that side effect is countered with a simple dietary supplement

How much do we really know about this sudden epidemic? Long term effect? Psychological consequesnces?

"There is a need for continued research on suicidality outcomes following gender-affirming treatment. Future research that incorporates multiple measures of suicidality and adequately controls for the presence of psychiatric comorbidity, substance use, and other suicide risk-enhancing factors is needed to strengthen the validity and increase the robustness of the results. There may be implications for the informed consent process of gender-affirming treatment given the current lack of methodological robustness of the literature reviewed."


Do we really need to mutilate children’s bodies?
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
But is it the body or the brain that determines 'gender' or orientation? If a man's born with a female brain, wouldn't you expect him to have a woman's sexual orientation? If I cut a man's head off and replaced it with a woman's, would the result be a man, or a woman?
I think body is the one that determines the true orientation. A man can't have sex as a woman. If a man thinks he is a woman, he can only fool himself to think the reality is something else than what it is.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member
I don't believe the differences in the brain are the cause, more likely it is the result of what the person wants to think
I believe from experience in "mind over matter"
Meaning that our thoughts come first, then the words and finally it materializes in the body

My father crossed my boundaries when I was young, I was too weak (3 year old) to stop him. Naturally I liked women better than man. When this goes on for 20 years I'm not surprised that I like women much better than men. Seems common sense to me

Because of belittling and crossing the line, My mentally suppressed anger caused physical diseases, like cancer, kidney trouble, crohn's disease. So, I now know that parenting has immense impact on the body, and on the feelings, emotions
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I'm not aware of any cases either. The Mayo Clinic web page is helpful to understand the process. I'll note that there are exceptions but we should not focus on the rare exceptions when considering policy but the rule.

Treatment can help people who have gender dysphoria explore their gender identity and find the gender role that feels comfortable for them, easing distress. However, treatment should be individualized. What might help one person might not help another.​
Treatment options might include changes in gender expression and role, hormone therapy, surgery, and behavioral therapy.​
...​
The World Professional Association for Transgender Health provides the following criteria for hormonal and surgical treatment of gender dysphoria:​
  • Persistent, well-documented gender dysphoria.
  • Capacity to make a fully informed decision and consent to treatment.
  • Legal age in a person's country or, if younger, following the standard of care for children and adolescents.
  • If significant medical or mental concerns are present, they must be reasonably well controlled.

@sunrise, the following isn't really directed at you, but at the posters in general.

It strikes me that there is a lot of semantic confusion on this topic, in the world and on this thread. What I'm about to say has been debated before on RF, but that doesn't mean it's been settled:

I continue to claim that "gender" and "gender identity" are both ill-defined ideas, and we should not be basing laws and medical practices on these terms. If anyone disagrees, I welcome your definitions of these two terms with the understanding that I will challenge you to support them logically. Not with appeals to dubious authorities such as WPATH.

So, for the sake of discussion, if we leave the term gender out of the discussion it seems clear that:

- There are two biological sexes and a host of rare variants of biological sex. Biologic sex is not expressed solely by our genitalia, it's also deeply embedded - in many ways - in every cell of our body. Sex is - at this stage of our science and medicine - immutable. I'm sorry if this fact is offensive to anyone, but sex is immutable.

- Attraction: It's clear that who we're attracted to is infinitely varied, hooray, we should support that. Being opposite sex attracted is the most common, but same sex attraction is also quite common. And some people are attracted to everyone and so on... It seems that attraction is fluid for some people.

- Ease in your own body: It's clear that some people feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, they wish their bodies were different, perhaps of the opposite sex. When young people have this discomfort it's often called gender dysphoria or GD.

How to help kids with GD has been the topic of ongoing, heated debates. I think a useful summary of the support system is that a group called WPATH, based their ideas about how to treat GD in kids on a Dutch study done maybe 15 years ago or so. WPATH's approach is called the "standard of care" or "SOC". it's I believe it's now on its 8th version (v8). WPATH's SOC is largely the basis for the standard protocol used in the US and in Europe and it's called GAC or gender affirming care. GAC is based on the idea that if a kid has GD, health care providers should "Affirm" the kid's feelings and allow the kid to pursue exploring what it might like to be the opposite sex through a series of interventions that are supposed to go from least permanent and dangerous to most. These include: social transitioning, then puberty blockers, then hormones, and then surgeries. Not all of these steps are taken for every kid. There are a couple of facts that are important to keep in mind when considering GAC:
- many studies have shown that kids with GD often grow out of it naturally as they pass thru puberty, and that many of these kids end up being happy and gay.
- a large percentage of kids with GD have other severe mental health conditions such as autism.

I'm of the opinion that GAC is a horribly wrong approach. That it IS dangerous and irreversible and that the evidence of its benefits are of low quality. In England a 4 year study of GAC was done by Dr. Hillary Cass and her team and her results largely echo what I just said about GAC.

IMO, the people who created and support GAC are making a series of extraordinary claims, it is their responsibility to provide extraordinarily good evidence, which they have not done.

Again, the topic of GAC has been endlessly debated on this forum and there are quite a few people on RF who violently disagree with me.

But for this thread, I think we can stick to biological sex and attraction, and jettison "gender" and "gender identity" until someone can provide a solid, defendable definition for those terms.

I think it's critical to attack these terms because if we accept them without scrutiny, a lot of dangerous ground has been given.
 

Argentbear

Well-Known Member
@sunrise, the following isn't really directed at you, but at the posters in general.

It strikes me that there is a lot of semantic confusion on this topic, in the world and on this thread. What I'm about to say has been debated before on RF, but that doesn't mean it's been settled:

I continue to claim that "gender" and "gender identity" are both ill-defined ideas, and we should not be basing laws and medical practices on these terms. If anyone disagrees, I welcome your definitions of these two terms with the understanding that I will challenge you to support them logically. Not with appeals to dubious authorities such as WPATH.

So, for the sake of discussion, if we leave the term gender out of the discussion it seems clear that:
The fact you don['t like the definition of a word doesn't mean that word is not defined.
For purposes of legislation there is no problem defining gender as a social construct that refers to the roles, behaviors, and identities of people, and how they relate to each other. Gender is not biological sex.

The only reason to ignore the existence of gender is to push an agenda of discrimination.
- There are two biological sexes and a host of rare variants of biological sex. Biologic sex is not expressed solely by our genitalia, it's also deeply embedded - in many ways - in every cell of our body. Sex is - at this stage of our science and medicine - immutable. I'm sorry if this fact is offensive to anyone, but sex is immutable.

- Attraction: It's clear that who we're attracted to is infinitely varied, hooray, we should support that. Being opposite sex attracted is the most common, but same sex attraction is also quite common. And some people are attracted to everyone and so on... It seems that attraction is fluid for some people.

- Ease in your own body: It's clear that some people feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, they wish their bodies were different, perhaps of the opposite sex. When young people have this discomfort it's often called gender dysphoria or GD.
False. Gender dysphoria is an anxiety disorder that affects about 7% of the transgender population at some point in their lives. It is a condition that causes anxiety and distress when a person's gender identity differs from their biological sex. It is also clear that this distress results from external pressures to conform and to deny one's gender identity.
How to help kids with GD has been the topic of ongoing, heated debates. I think a useful summary of the support system is that a group called WPATH, based their ideas about how to treat GD in kids on a Dutch study done maybe 15 years ago or so. WPATH's approach is called the "standard of care" or "SOC". it's I believe it's now on its 8th version (v8). WPATH's SOC is largely the basis for the standard protocol used in the US and in Europe and it's called GAC or gender affirming care. GAC is based on the idea that if a kid has GD, health care providers should "Affirm" the kid's feelings and allow the kid to pursue exploring what it might like to be the opposite sex through a series of interventions that are supposed to go from least permanent and dangerous to most. These include: social transitioning, then puberty blockers, then hormones, and then surgeries. Not all of these steps are taken for every kid.
False on so many levels.

the standards of care actually says that every individual is unique and there is no one size fits all and no one set of interventions or explorations. The clinician works together with the patient and family to determine what course treatment is to follow for that individual.

There are a couple of facts that are important to keep in mind when considering GAC:
- many studies have shown that kids with GD often grow out of it naturally as they pass thru puberty, and that many of these kids end up being happy and gay.

This is claimed a lot but never supported.

Please cite these studies
 
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