To Hebrew experts: did Eve sleep with the Serpent?

[Terry Sampson]

Are you referring to yourself? What a minute, you think you're the Messiah?

Yes, she does.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For the record, ...

I've chosen to add you to my ignore list. I mention it because I would not want you to misconstrue a 'failure' to respond to future threads. L'shalom ...

 

[susanblange]

Are you referring to yourself? What a minute, you think you're the Messiah?

I'm absolutely convinced that I am the Messiah, Frank. I thought you knew that? My calling lasted 9-10 months, between August 1983 and May 1984. Every month a prophecy was fulfilled. The three wise men, the Drummer Boy, the Star in the East with the Kings visiting, the birth of Emanuel, the Flying Roll, and the Voice from Heaven. There are hundreds more but I've never counted them.

 

[susanblange]

May I see a link to your dictionary? The word as written lacks any prefix that would change it from the simple noun to include a preposition. A modern dictionary has Check out the translation for 'אדמה' on Morfix Translation and Dictionary
I'm not much of a fan of this site, Adamah Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary but it also just has the noun.


No, the text has "elusive" and "twisting". 27:1 has no word "piercing."

Really? Hebrew speakers would disagree. The Even Shoshan dictionary has over 70,000 words. Here is some other information https://www.quora.com/How-many-uniq...re-in-the-Old-Testament-Tanakh-Are-there-8674



Tzephania doesn't mention English. In fact, because it says that the clear language will be one in which one can invoke God's name, it must be speaking of Hebrew. Why rely on a translation? Even you say "best besides the Hebrew." As the Metzudat David says, "כי אז אהפוך. אשר אז אהפוך על העכו״ם שידברו שפה ברורה תמורת עמקי השפה אשר עמכם ר״ל שידברו בלשון הקדש במקום הלשון שמדברים עכשיו"

I'm sorry rosends, I don't have a link. I'm not that sophisticated. "Piercing" in Isaiah 27:1 is the perfect translation. Psalm 22:16. "...they pierced my hands and my feet". This was exactly what happened. I do not know a lot of Hebrew. Isaiah 28:11. "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people". God's real, given name is not in Hebrew, it's in English. The name Susan is Shoshana in Hebrew and it means "lily". The lily is a recurring theme in the SOS, and the Temple was adorned with lilies. Lilith was Adam's first wife, his mother, and his God. Susan is also The BRANCH. Zechariah 6:12. (Je)SUSAN. My middle name is Bixby. It is a family name and there is a famous letter written by Abraham Lincoln to Lydia Bixby about the death of her five sons in the Civil War fighting for the Union regarding slavery. She is an ancestor of mine. The X is a St. Andrews cross and it is the middle letter of my middle name and the middle letter of my entire name. "They have tilted my Holy Cross". It is also the mark that God put on Cain, a letter from the Lord's name. The X pops up a lot in my life. It's also Susan B, like Susan B Anthony, the Suffragist. Lange is Pennsylvania Dutch/German, it is pronounced like Lang, and it's short for "Language". The number of the Messiah's name is not 666, it's 555. Elijah's last name is "Lexicon" stretched out. The Lord's name is SUSAN BIXBY LANGE. The Branch, The Cross, and The Word. It is also Hashem. God kept her name secret mainly because if we knew the name of God, we would know that the God of Israel is a woman and Israel would've been weakened by it. Deuteronomy 32:3. "Because I will publish the name of the Lord..."

 

[rosends]

I'm sorry rosends, I don't have a link. I'm not that sophisticated.

OK, can you copy over any of the bibliographical information of the print edition?

"Piercing" in Isaiah 27:1 is the perfect translation. Psalm 22:16. "...they pierced my hands and my feet".

The word mistranslated as "pierced" in Psalms is "Ka'ari". That word does NOT appear in 27:1 of Isaiah, nor does any version of it. So how are you reading "pierced" into the Isaiah quote?

As to the rest, good luck with that. Meanwhile, let's try to maintain focus on the issue of these precise words.

 

[Terry Sampson]

@Wandering Monk

Two consequences of my involvement in this thread have been: (1) it has been a real eye-opener and (2) I'm even more open to your earlier opinion than I was. i.e. "it seems to me that early Jewish believers and mainstream Jewish teachers influenced each other. Sometimes there are subtle hints that some of the mainstream Jewish teachers were either secret believers in Jesus or had adopted some Jewish Christian notions."

 

[rosends]

@Wandering Monk

Two consequences of my involvement in this thread have been: (1) it has been a real eye-opener and (2) I'm even more open to your earlier opinion than I was. i.e. "it seems to me that early Jewish believers and mainstream Jewish teachers influenced each other. Sometimes there are subtle hints that some of the mainstream Jewish teachers were either secret believers in Jesus or had adopted some Jewish Christian notions."

Quick question:
The Judaic sources which allude to any physical relationship between the serpent and Ever are from the talmud (which quotes material handed down oral since Sinai, predating the common era by a long, long time) and medrashic (even Zoharic) sources which are also part of an oral tradition which well predates the common era. Wouldn't it be more likely that the nascent church, filled with (former) Jewish believers was influenced by the stories and beliefs of those early neo-Christian adherents and was then influenced by them (and their extant Jewish beliefs), instead of assuming that mainstream Jewish believers were influenced by Christian notions?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Quick question:

• The Judaic sources which allude to any physical relationship between the serpent and Ever are from the talmud (which quotes material handed down oral since Sinai, predating the common era by a long, long time) and medrashic (even Zoharic) sources which are also part of an oral tradition which well predates the common era.
  • Wouldn't it be more likely that the nascent church, filled with (former) Jewish believers was influenced by the stories and beliefs of those early neo-Christian adherents
  • and was then influenced by them (and their extant Jewish beliefs),
  • instead of assuming that mainstream Jewish believers were influenced by Christian notions?

Thanks for your input. At this point,

• I know that you know what you're saying;
• I think I know what you're saying;
• But I'd like to be sure that I know what you're saying.
• Are you saying ?

NOTES:

1. The "Jewish Converts" above refers to one or more formerly-traditional Jews, familiar with the Judaic "Story of Eve's defilement by the Serpent", who became Christian.
2. My understanding is that the Proto-Gospel of James was probably written sometime between 145 CE and (I think) 170 CE. In other words, the Christian version was written considerably before the Jewish version was written.
3. The Talmud Bavli specifically names "Rabbi Yohanon(sp.?)" and attributes the story in question to him. Is the identity of that Rabbi certain or ambiguous? I ask because I don't know if there were any other Rabbi's who were named "Yohanon" in part or whole,
   • If, by that name, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai is meant, then wouldn't that place "the story" in Israel as early, at the very least, theoretically around 70 CE?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Wouldn't it be more likely that the nascent church, filled with (former) Jewish believers was influenced by the stories and beliefs of those early neo-Christian adherents and was then influenced by them (and their extant Jewish beliefs), instead of assuming that mainstream Jewish believers were influenced by Christian notions?

Leaving aside problematic terms such as "mainstream Jewish believers," I see no reason to assume that evolving Jewish beliefs should prove lacking in Babylonian, Persian, Hellenist, and gnostic/Christian influences.

 

[rosends]

Thanks for your input. At this point,

• I know that you know what you're saying;
• I think I know what you're saying;
• But I'd like to be sure that I know what you're saying.
• Are you saying ?

View attachment 32761


NOTES:

1. The "Jewish Converts" above refers to one or more former traditional Jews, familiar with the Judaic "Story of Eve's defilement by the Serpent", who became a Christian.
2. My understanding is that the Proto-Gospel of James was probably written sometime between 145 CE and (I think) 170 CE. In other words, the Christian version was written considerably before the Jewish version was written.
3. The Talmud Bavli specifically names "Rabbi Yohanon(sp.?)" and attributes the story in question to him. Is the identity of that Rabbi certain or ambiguous? I ask because I don't know if there were any other Rabbi's who were named "Yohanon" in part or whole,
   • If, by that name, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai is meant, then wouldn't that place "the story" in Israel as early, at the very least, theoretically around 70 CE?

First -- awesome picture. I can't draw a circle without corners, so kudos.
Second, yes the picture is accurate.
Third, the identity of the R. Yochanan is immaterial. The Judaic texts attribute a quote to the person who was known for saying it, not necessarily the person who came up with it. The written text of the talmud is a codification of previously spoken material so a name doesn;t indicate a starting point for many ideas in it.

 

[rosends]

Leaving aside problematic terms such as "mainstream Jewish believers," I see no reason to assume that evolving Jewish beliefs should prove lacking in Babylonian, Persian, Hellenist, and gnostic/Christian influences.

But cultural myths that traditionally predated Christianity should be seen as influences ON not as end results of Christianity.

 

[Terry Sampson]

First -- awesome picture. I can't draw a circle without corners, so kudos.
Second, yes the picture is accurate.
Third, the identity of the R. Yochanan is immaterial. The Judaic texts attribute a quote to the person who was known for saying it, not necessarily the person who came up with it. The written text of the talmud is a codification of previously spoken material so a name doesn;t indicate a starting point for many ideas in it.

1. You don't know how happy that makes me. Those who have been unable to make sense of my reflections on the matter may not believe it, but I speculated much the same thing you have described.
2. I am pleased to know that I understood you.
3. Ahhh, ... so the Judaic origin "may NOT have been "in Israel, at least as early as 70 CE". Okay, but I'm going to start the story that "the story of Eve's defilement" had a Judaic origin, at least as early as the mid-2nd century CE.

 

[Muffled]

You speak for God now, Susan?

I believe she does not speak for God but speaks her own mind.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Im wondering why the Talmud does not note that the 'serpent', was actually a dragon, at interaction, with Eve.
The sin attribute was adapted when the serpent was a 'dragon'. [Presuming the talmud doesn't note this?

• The fact that the Talmud says that the serpent was condemned to crawl on its belly AFTER the divine curse was my reason for saying that Talmud writers described the serpent as having, originally, two or more legs.
• In fact, I know that, while reading the Talmudic sources, I saw at least one source that went so far as to compare the original serpent to "a camel", i.e. vegetarian, four-legged animal.
• As tempting as it is to imagine that "the original serpent" of Genesis was probably a dragon like creature, I think, personally, I'll stick to the vegetarian, non-human, four-legged beast.

 

[Muffled]

But...but...now I can't go on about the Devil being my daddy.

I believe even if you are not Adamic and think you might be an offspring of Hel it would not matter because Hel most likely shape shifted into human form to have sex with Odin so the DNA would probably still com back Caucasian.

I have 1% Adamic ancestry a large per cent Caucasian and a little Atlantean.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have 1% Adamic ancestry a large per cent Caucasian and a little Atlantean.

I have zero Adamic, zero Atlantean, but a whole bunch of Celt.

 

[rosends]

1. You don't know how happy that makes me. Those who have been unable to make sense of my reflections on the matter may not believe it, but I speculated much the same thing you have described.
2. I am pleased to know that I understood you.
3. Ahhh, ... so the Judaic origin "may NOT have been "in Israel, at least as early as 70 CE". Okay, but I'm going to start the story that "the story of Eve's defilement" had a Judaic origin, at least as early as the mid-2nd century CE.

I have to look at the commentators but if I recall, there is a midrashic understanding of the serpent as looking much like a man before the curse, so a dragon wouldn't be most accurate.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I have to look at the commentators but if I recall, there is a midrashic understanding of the serpent as looking much like a man before the curse, so a dragon wouldn't be most accurate.

I agree. And I suspect (strongly) that the serpent-temptor in Genesis morphed, over time, from a self-motivated temptor to a "spokesperson"/puppet through which an "angelic temptor" spoke, to an "angelic temptor" in serpent-form. At some point in the morphing process, Christians took over and turned the angelic temptor into the Prince of Darkness himself, better known under one of his aliases: the Devil, Satan, Lucifer, often portrayed with large "dragon wings".

 

[Muffled]

I have zero Adamic, zero Atlantean, but a whole bunch of Celt.

I believe there are four Celtic races that constitute Caucasian: Dwarfs, Blonde blue eyed, short and stout; Elves Red hair, pointy noses, ears and chins, short and thin; Wolves Black hair large noses medium height and build; gods perfect in form. The Atlanteans are best described by Scottish highlanders most striking are the highth of over 6 feet and rangy build. The Norse myths called them frost giants and the Irish myths called them: the People Under the Sea.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

believe there are four Celtic races that constitute Caucasian: Dwarfs, Blonde blue eyed, short and stout; Elves Red hair, pointy noses, ears and chins, short and thin; Wolves Black hair large noses medium height and build; gods perfect in form.

So, by my Strawberry blonde hair I'm an elvish dwarf, and because of my height I'm also part wolf?