Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
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To Hebrew experts: did Eve sleep with the Serpent?
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
susanblange
Active Member
I am not kidding, I speak the Truth.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
the serpent had intercourse with Eve and injected filth into her…
- Zohar Pekudei 21[10]
susanblange
Active Member
@ 3%, Judgment Day will leave roughly 210 million righteous people who will survive the fire. Christians will execute the Messiah and the third Judgment is called the "Day of Decision". Joel 3:12-14. All of the heathen/idolaters will also be cut off by fire. This will include Jesus and all remaining Christians. They are the "sons of darkness". Ezekiel 28:18-19, Zechariah 14:12. About half of the 210 million will survive to witness the resurrection on the Mount of Olives, or 100 million people. Zechariah 14:4-5. "...ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set and the books were opened". Daniel 7:10. The Book of Life will contain the names of those who love and fear the God of Israel. Exodus 20:6. It's also called the "book of remembrance". Malachi 3:14-16.
susanblange
Active Member
Well, at least you're calling me creative. Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".
exchemist
Veteran Member
Perhaps Adam was speaking of his own one-eyed trouser snake.
I doubt they're Gnostics so I assume they're a white supremacist Christian Identity group?
I don't think they are either of those things. But certainly not orthodox Christianity though.
InChrist
Free4ever
Most of the groups that teach the serpent seed idea are white supremacist Christian Identity groups.
Yeah, I've never come across it outside of that.
Duke_Leto
Active Member
To be honest, I still don’t understand why the OP is asking ‘Hebrew experts’ to explain the meaning of a term in a Greek manuscript which he/she apparently already understands.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
@Estro Felino
Hmmm, ... I may have been too hasty in thinking there was no historical mythological basis for the author of the apocryphal Proto-Gospel of James story which has gotten some of us so excited.
Toodlin' through the cyber-world, I came across some sample myths from Howard Schwartz's book, "Tree of Souls: The Mythology of Judaism" (Oxford University Press, 2004).
One of the myths, found @ FROM BOOK NINE, MYTHS OF EXILE , is #572:
572. HOW CAIN WAS CONCEIVED
Samael was the great prince in heaven. After God created the world, Samael took his band of followers and descended and saw the creatures that God had created. Among them he found none so skilled to do evil than the serpent, as it is said, Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild beasts (Gen. 3:1). Its appearance was something like that of a camel, and Samael mounted and rode upon it. Riding on the serpent, the angel Samael came to Eve in the night and seduced her, and she conceived Cain. Later, while Eve was pregnant by the angel, Adam came to her, and she conceived Abel. Others say it was the serpent himself who seduced Eve, for after he saw Adam and Eve coupling, the serpent conceived a passion for her. He even imagined killing Adam and marrying Eve. So he came to Eve when she was alone and possessed her and infused her with lust. That is how the serpent fathered Cain, who was later to slay his own brother. And that is how Eve was infected with his impurity. As a result, all of Israel was impure from that time until the Torah was given on Mount Sinai. Only then did Israel’s impurity cease.
There's more but I'll let you look it up and read it for yourself.
What I found VERY interesting is that (a) Schwartz is a Professor of English at the University of Missouri-St. Louis, (b) a fairly well-known and -praised author Welcome to Howard Schwartz on the Web , and (c) he cited the sources for his Myth #572. Here they are:
Here are my copies of the underlined sources:
Hmmm, ... I may have been too hasty in thinking there was no historical mythological basis for the author of the apocryphal Proto-Gospel of James story which has gotten some of us so excited.
Toodlin' through the cyber-world, I came across some sample myths from Howard Schwartz's book, "Tree of Souls: The Mythology of Judaism" (Oxford University Press, 2004).
One of the myths, found @ FROM BOOK NINE, MYTHS OF EXILE , is #572:
572. HOW CAIN WAS CONCEIVED
Samael was the great prince in heaven. After God created the world, Samael took his band of followers and descended and saw the creatures that God had created. Among them he found none so skilled to do evil than the serpent, as it is said, Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild beasts (Gen. 3:1). Its appearance was something like that of a camel, and Samael mounted and rode upon it. Riding on the serpent, the angel Samael came to Eve in the night and seduced her, and she conceived Cain. Later, while Eve was pregnant by the angel, Adam came to her, and she conceived Abel. Others say it was the serpent himself who seduced Eve, for after he saw Adam and Eve coupling, the serpent conceived a passion for her. He even imagined killing Adam and marrying Eve. So he came to Eve when she was alone and possessed her and infused her with lust. That is how the serpent fathered Cain, who was later to slay his own brother. And that is how Eve was infected with his impurity. As a result, all of Israel was impure from that time until the Torah was given on Mount Sinai. Only then did Israel’s impurity cease.
There's more but I'll let you look it up and read it for yourself.
What I found VERY interesting is that (a) Schwartz is a Professor of English at the University of Missouri-St. Louis, (b) a fairly well-known and -praised author Welcome to Howard Schwartz on the Web , and (c) he cited the sources for his Myth #572. Here they are:
- Targum Pseudo-Yonathan on Genesis 4:1;
- B. Shabbat 145b-146a;
- B. Sota 9b;
- B. Yevamot 103b;
- B. Avodah Zarah 22b;
- Genesis Rabbah 18:6;
- Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer 13, 21, and 22;
- Zohar 1:28b, 1:36b-137a, 1:54a, 1:55a; 1:243b, 2:52a;
- Magen Avot 53.
Here are my copies of the underlined sources:
- B. Shabbat 145b-146a:
- Rabbi Yoḥanan then explained to them: Why are gentiles ethically contaminated? It is because they did not stand on Mount Sinai. As when the snake came upon Eve, i.e., when it seduced her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, it infected her with moral contamination, and this contamination remained in all human beings. When the Jewish people stood at Mount Sinai, their contamination ceased, whereas gentiles did not stand at Mount Sinai, and their contamination never ceased. Rav Aḥa, the son of Rava, said to Rav Ashi: What about converts? How do you explain the cessation of their moral contamination? Rav Ashi said to him: Even though they themselves were not at Mount Sinai, their guardian angels were present, as it is written: “It is not with you alone that I make this covenant and this oath, but with he that stands here with us today before the Lord our God, and with he that is not here with us today” (Deuteronomy 29:13–14), and this includes converts.
- Gee, ... that kind of looks like the makings of "an Origin of the Christian doctrine of Original Sin" story from where I sit. We Gentiles just missed the cleansing effect of not having ancestors standing with the Israelites at Mount Sinai.
- B. Sotah 9b:
- And, so too, we found with regard to the primeval snake who seduced Eve, for he placed his eyes on that which was unfit for him, as he wanted to marry Eve. Consequently, that which he desired was not given to him, and that which was in his possession was taken from him. The Holy One, Blessed be He, said: I initially said that the snake will be king over every domesticated animal and non-domesticated animal, but now he is cursed more than all the domesticated animals and all the non-domesticated animals of the field, as it is stated: “And the Lord God said unto the serpent: Because you have done this, you are cursed from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life” (Genesis 3:14).
- The baraita explains the elements of this curse. I said that the snake will walk upright, but now he shall go on his belly; I said that his food will be the same as the food eaten by a person, but now he shall eat dust. The snake said: I will kill Adam and marry Eve, but now: “I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed” (Genesis 3:15).
- Yikes! The snake used walk on at least two legs and wanted to marry Eve? Sunday School could have been so much more interesting. Kids would have come from miles around to hear that story.
- B. Yevamot 103b:
- The Gemara answers: He implants filth in her and contaminates her, as her body accepts his semen. As Rabbi Yoḥanan also said, based on his understanding that the serpent seduced Eve into having sexual relations with him: When the serpent came upon Eve, he infected her with moral contamination, and this contamination remained in all human beings. When the Jewish people stood at Mount Sinai their contamination ceased, whereas with regard to gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai, their contamination never ceased.
- That underlined part sure looks to me like a possible original version of "the Serpent's Seed" story in the Proto-Gospel of James story that you opened your OP with, doesn't it?
- B. Avodah Zarah 22b:
- And if you wish, say instead: Even when he finds the wife, he also engages in bestiality with the animal, as the Master said: The animal of a Jew is more appealing to gentiles than their own wives, as Rabbi Yoḥanan says: At the time when the snake came upon Eve, at the time of the sin of her eating from the Tree of Knowledge, it infected her with moral contamination, and this contamination lingers in all human beings. The Gemara asks: If that is so, a Jew should also be suspected of engaging in bestiality. The Gemara answers: With regard to the Jewish people, who stood at Mount Sinai and received the Torah, their contamination ended, whereas in the case of gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai and receive the Torah, their contamination has not ended.
- From this ignorant Gentile's perspective, the B. Avodah Zarah section seemed--on a real quick scan--to mostly be about bestiality issues and whether Jews should buy animals from Gentiles, who apparently often preferred their animals to their wives.
- This last source merits a brief run-through of a couple of verses from Genesis:
- Genesis 2:25 And they [Adam and Eve] were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
- Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
- Genesis 3:21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.
- Midrash Genesis Rabah 18:6 addresses the question "Why the big gap between Adam and Eve walking around naked (in 2:25) and God putting clothes on them (in 3:31). The explanation, as I understand it, was so that the author could work in the story of the serpent's temptation and Adam & Eve's "fall from grace" and not end there. Instead, God clothes Adam and Eve, which is a more positive note to end on.
- From Midrash Genesis Rabah 18:6.
- AND THEY WERE BOTH NAKED, AND WERE NOT ASHAMED .... NOW THE SERPENT WAS MORE SUBTLE, etc. Now Surely Scripture should have stated: “And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife garments of skin” (Gen. in, 2I)[1] [immediately after the former verse]? Said R. Joshua b. Karhah: It teaches you [2] through what sin that wicked creature inveigled them, viz. because he saw them engaged in their natural functions, he [the serpent] conceived a passion for her.[3] R. Jacob of Kefar Hanan said : It is thus written in order not to conclude with the passage on the serpent.[4]
[1] The questioner holds that God made these garments before Adam sinned, and as a natural covering for their nakedness. But in that case it should immediately have followed this verse.
[2] Viz. the interpolation about the serpent.
[3] Hence he sought to encompass Adam's death through sin.
[4] And the curse he brought. Therefore ' And the Lord God made . . . garments' is reserved for the ending, so as to conclude on the brighter note of God's care.
- AND THEY WERE BOTH NAKED, AND WERE NOT ASHAMED .... NOW THE SERPENT WAS MORE SUBTLE, etc. Now Surely Scripture should have stated: “And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife garments of skin” (Gen. in, 2I)[1] [immediately after the former verse]? Said R. Joshua b. Karhah: It teaches you [2] through what sin that wicked creature inveigled them, viz. because he saw them engaged in their natural functions, he [the serpent] conceived a passion for her.[3] R. Jacob of Kefar Hanan said : It is thus written in order not to conclude with the passage on the serpent.[4]
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I think your post was informative but I still don't understand the point of the thread.
Wandering Monk
Well-Known Member
@Estro Felino
Hmmm, ... I may have been too hasty in thinking there was no historical mythological basis for the author of the apocryphal Proto-Gospel of James story which has gotten some of us so excited.
Toodlin' through the cyber-world, I came across some sample myths from Howard Schwartz's book, "Tree of Souls: The Mythology of Judaism" (Oxford University Press, 2004).
One of the myths, found @ FROM BOOK NINE, MYTHS OF EXILE , is #572:
572. HOW CAIN WAS CONCEIVED
Samael was the great prince in heaven. After God created the world, Samael took his band of followers and descended and saw the creatures that God had created. Among them he found none so skilled to do evil than the serpent, as it is said, Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild beasts (Gen. 3:1). Its appearance was something like that of a camel, and Samael mounted and rode upon it. Riding on the serpent, the angel Samael came to Eve in the night and seduced her, and she conceived Cain. Later, while Eve was pregnant by the angel, Adam came to her, and she conceived Abel. Others say it was the serpent himself who seduced Eve, for after he saw Adam and Eve coupling, the serpent conceived a passion for her. He even imagined killing Adam and marrying Eve. So he came to Eve when she was alone and possessed her and infused her with lust. That is how the serpent fathered Cain, who was later to slay his own brother. And that is how Eve was infected with his impurity. As a result, all of Israel was impure from that time until the Torah was given on Mount Sinai. Only then did Israel’s impurity cease.
There's more but I'll let you look it up and read it for yourself.
What I found VERY interesting is that (a) Schwartz is a Professor of English at the University of Missouri-St. Louis, (b) a fairly well-known and -praised author Welcome to Howard Schwartz on the Web , and (c) he cited the sources for his Myth #572. Here they are:
Now, I'm not a Hebrew Expert by a long shot, but I was able to actually locate Sources #2, #3, #4, #5, and #6. #2 through #5 are from the Babylonian Talmud, and #6 is from the Midrash. I'm not sure when they were "compiled". Seems unreasonable to think they may have been influenced by a Christian story like the one recorded in the Proto-Gospel of James was written. On the other hand, I can't help but wonder if the Proto-Gospel of James version of the Adam/Eve/Serpent interaction may have had its source among non-Christian Jews.
- Targum Pseudo-Yonathan on Genesis 4:1;
- B. Shabbat 145b-146a;
- B. Sota 9b;
- B. Yevamot 103b;
- B. Avodah Zarah 22b;
- Genesis Rabbah 18:6;
- Pirkei de-Rabbi Eliezer 13, 21, and 22;
- Zohar 1:28b, 1:36b-137a, 1:54a, 1:55a; 1:243b, 2:52a;
- Magen Avot 53.
Here are my copies of the underlined sources:
What d'ya think?
- B. Shabbat 145b-146a:
- Rabbi Yoḥanan then explained to them: Why are gentiles ethically contaminated? It is because they did not stand on Mount Sinai. As when the snake came upon Eve, i.e., when it seduced her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, it infected her with moral contamination, and this contamination remained in all human beings. When the Jewish people stood at Mount Sinai, their contamination ceased, whereas gentiles did not stand at Mount Sinai, and their contamination never ceased. Rav Aḥa, the son of Rava, said to Rav Ashi: What about converts? How do you explain the cessation of their moral contamination? Rav Ashi said to him: Even though they themselves were not at Mount Sinai, their guardian angels were present, as it is written: “It is not with you alone that I make this covenant and this oath, but with he that stands here with us today before the Lord our God, and with he that is not here with us today” (Deuteronomy 29:13–14), and this includes converts.
- Gee, ... that kind of looks like the makings of "an Origin of the Christian doctrine of Original Sin" story from where I sit. We Gentiles just missed the cleansing effect of not having ancestors standing with the Israelites at Mount Sinai.
- B. Sotah 9b:
- And, so too, we found with regard to the primeval snake who seduced Eve, for he placed his eyes on that which was unfit for him, as he wanted to marry Eve. Consequently, that which he desired was not given to him, and that which was in his possession was taken from him. The Holy One, Blessed be He, said: I initially said that the snake will be king over every domesticated animal and non-domesticated animal, but now he is cursed more than all the domesticated animals and all the non-domesticated animals of the field, as it is stated: “And the Lord God said unto the serpent: Because you have done this, you are cursed from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life” (Genesis 3:14).
- The baraita explains the elements of this curse. I said that the snake will walk upright, but now he shall go on his belly; I said that his food will be the same as the food eaten by a person, but now he shall eat dust. The snake said: I will kill Adam and marry Eve, but now: “I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed” (Genesis 3:15).
- Yikes! The snake used walk on at least two legs and wanted to marry Eve? Sunday School could have been so much more interesting. Kids would have come from miles around to hear that story.
- B. Yevamot 103b:
- The Gemara answers: He implants filth in her and contaminates her, as her body accepts his semen. As Rabbi Yoḥanan also said, based on his understanding that the serpent seduced Eve into having sexual relations with him: When the serpent came upon Eve, he infected her with moral contamination, and this contamination remained in all human beings. When the Jewish people stood at Mount Sinai their contamination ceased, whereas with regard to gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai, their contamination never ceased.
- That underlined part sure looks to me like a possible original version of "the Serpent's Seed" story in the Proto-Gospel of James story that you opened your OP with, doesn't it?
- B. Avodah Zarah 22b:
- And if you wish, say instead: Even when he finds the wife, he also engages in bestiality with the animal, as the Master said: The animal of a Jew is more appealing to gentiles than their own wives, as Rabbi Yoḥanan says: At the time when the snake came upon Eve, at the time of the sin of her eating from the Tree of Knowledge, it infected her with moral contamination, and this contamination lingers in all human beings. The Gemara asks: If that is so, a Jew should also be suspected of engaging in bestiality. The Gemara answers: With regard to the Jewish people, who stood at Mount Sinai and received the Torah, their contamination ended, whereas in the case of gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai and receive the Torah, their contamination has not ended.
- From this ignorant Gentile's perspective, the B. Avodah Zarah section seemed--on a real quick scan--to mostly be about bestiality issues and whether Jews should buy animals from Gentiles, who apparently often preferred their animals to their wives.
- This last source merits a brief run-through of a couple of verses from Genesis:
- Genesis 2:25 And they [Adam and Eve] were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
- Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
- Genesis 3:21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.
- Midrash Genesis Rabah 18:6 addresses the question "Why the big gap between Adam and Eve walking around naked (in 2:25) and God putting clothes on them (in 3:31). The explanation, as I understand it, was so that the author could work in the story of the serpent's temptation and Adam & Eve's "fall from grace" and not end there. Instead, God clothes Adam and Eve, which is a more positive note to end on.
- From Midrash Genesis Rabah 18:6.
- AND THEY WERE BOTH NAKED, AND WERE NOT ASHAMED .... NOW THE SERPENT WAS MORE SUBTLE, etc. Now Surely Scripture should have stated: “And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife garments of skin” (Gen. in, 2I)[1] [immediately after the former verse]? Said R. Joshua b. Karhah: It teaches you [2] through what sin that wicked creature inveigled them, viz. because he saw them engaged in their natural functions, he [the serpent] conceived a passion for her.[3] R. Jacob of Kefar Hanan said : It is thus written in order not to conclude with the passage on the serpent.[4]
[1] The questioner holds that God made these garments before Adam sinned, and as a natural covering for their nakedness. But in that case it should immediately have followed this verse.
[2] Viz. the interpolation about the serpent.
[3] Hence he sought to encompass Adam's death through sin.
[4] And the curse he brought. Therefore ' And the Lord God made . . . garments' is reserved for the ending, so as to conclude on the brighter note of God's care.
I think people believe wacky ****.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe the serpent was Hel from the Norse Myths. He/she would have been capable as a shape shifter. As a woman she had a child by Odin and that wasn't the only offspring. The bottom line here is that Hel already had a seed so then it makes sense that Eve's seed would be different from Hel's seed.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
sooda
Veteran Member
You speak for God now, Susan?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
But...but...now I can't go on about the Devil being my daddy.
Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Whew!!! You don't know how relieved I am that you think my post was informative. And I mean that sincerely.
As for the point of Estro's thread, ... I'm going to go way out on a limb here and "read her mind". Let's see if she rejects my understanding.
( @Estro Felino )
- First, I assumed--whether correctly or incorrectly really doesn't matter--that Estro is familiar with the original, "official" Genesis account of the serpent's temptation of Eve and the consequences of Eve and Adam's eating the forbidden fruit, (Genesis 3:1-24).
- It so happens that I know the "official" story, having been told it and having read it more times than I can remember--in childhood and adulthood--because of my thoroughly-Protestant upbringing.
- So, Estro--for a lark or for self-education--discovers the apocryphal Proto-Gospel of James [also called "The Infancy Gospel of James" https://www.asu.edu/courses/rel376/total-readings/james.pdf ], wherein she reads Chapter 13.
- In that Chapter, Joseph, the husband of Mary who was the mother of Jesus of Nazareth,
- discovers that Mary is pregnant,
- knows that she was alleged to be a pure virgin when he married her,
- knows that he and she have never had sex,
- becomes very upset, understandably,
- and grills Mary over her pregnancy,
- but not before wondering aloud whether the serpent who defiled Eve while Adam was off glorifying God had done the same to Mary, Joseph's wife.
- discovers that Mary is pregnant,
- Those of us who know "the Gospel of Matthew" and "the Gospel of Luke" versions of Jesus' conception know that no serpent was involved in Mary's pregnancy in either version. Matthew's gospel says:
- "18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
- "19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.
- "20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
- "21 She will bear a son; and you shall call His name Jesus,"
- So, finding out that there's a version of Jesus' birth in which a distraught Joseph wonders if what happened to Eve also happened to his heretofore-thought-to-be-virgin wife, Mary, those of us who know, or thought we knew,
- (a) the Genesis version of the Eve/serpent/Adam story and
- (b) the Matthew and/or Luke version of Jesus' conception
- scratch our heads, wondering where the apocryphal Gospel of James got his version of the Eve/Serpent/Adam story and his version of the Virgin Mary/Serpent/Joseph story.
- (a) the Genesis version of the Eve/serpent/Adam story and
- I conjecture that Estro knew enough about:
- the apocryphal Gospel of James story to know that it probably first showed up in Greek and
- the Eve/Serpent/Adam story of Genesis first appeared in Hebrew;
- and she wondered if there was something in the Hebrew word for "serpent" that would lend itself to being or representing something that might have been imagined to have defiled Eve in the Hebrew version of the story.
- Ergo, her third question: "What does the word serpent actually mean in Hebrew?"
- Estro's first question: What does Joseph mean?
- Joseph means:
- Mary was a virgin when we married;
- Mary isn't a virgin anymore;
- I didn't make her pregnant;
- So who did?
- His first thought was: Has what happened to Adam happened to me? to wit: a serpent deceived and defiled Eve; has that same serpent or another deceived and defiled Mary, my wife?
- Joseph means:
- Estro's second question: Does he mean the serpent was a man and slept with Eve, impregnating her?
- My answer: No, What Joseph meant was exactly what the author of the Proto-Gospel of James wrote: Did what happened to Adam happen here; i.e. Did the serpent that deceived and defiled Eve, or a serpent like that first serpent, now deceive and defile my wife, Mary?
- What was the first serpent like? I look to what the Talmud tells me: In B. Yevamot 103B: "...the serpent seduced Eve into having sexual relations with him", as a consequence of which, “And the Lord God said unto the serpent: Because you have done this, you are cursed from among all cattle, and from among all beasts of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and dust shall you eat all the days of your life” (Genesis 3:14).
- In other words, because of what the serpent did to Eve, God cursed it. Prior to the curse, it walked on two or more legs, after the curse, it was condemned to crawl on its belly. Prior to the curse, it ate the same food eaten by Adam and Eve; after the curse, it was condemned to eat dust. Prior to the curse, it said "I will kill Adam and marry Eve; after the curse, there is enmity between it and Eve, and between its seed and her seed.
- The snake, whatever it was before God's curse, was NOT a man, like Adam; and Joseph was concerned that the non-human beast had deceived and defiled his wife.
- My answer: No, What Joseph meant was exactly what the author of the Proto-Gospel of James wrote: Did what happened to Adam happen here; i.e. Did the serpent that deceived and defiled Eve, or a serpent like that first serpent, now deceive and defile my wife, Mary?
- On my own initiative, I pursue the matter in the following manner.
- I say that the probability the authors of the Talmud and the persons identified in the Talmud incorporated Christian stories--whether actual or apocryphal--into their discussions has 0.00% likelihood. It is far more likely that Jewish Christians incorporated traditional Jewish stories into Christian writings.
- Potential Problem with that proposal: The Proto-Gospel of James is currently estimated to have been written around 145 CE. I do not know the date of any of the Talmud portions, but imagine them to have been written sometime after the Proto-Gospel.
- Consequently, I speculate (hopefully, reasonably so) that the tale of the serpent's seduction and defilement of Eve existed and circulated orally in Aramaic or Hebrew within some portion of Israel prior to the writing (in Greek) of the Proto-Gospel of James, and was later incorporated into some portion of the Jewish Christian community and attributed to a Fictitious author named James, because that was a name with carried some weight of reputation and authority with it.
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Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
But...but...now I can't go on about the Devil being my daddy.
I'll have to check her previous posts, but I think that makes you and susanblange half-sisters at least.