To the Non Believers.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I did not say that (kinda), I did say that I would have a better chance of being killed by someone who is Godless.

Ah... so you weren't actually trying to tar all atheists with the same brush. Good to hear.

However, I think you're a bit off on your math. You're more likely to be killed by a theist, simply because there are so many more of them than atheists.

For instance, the latest numbers for the US say that the population is about 15% "godless" and 85% some sort of theist. This means that, on average, you probably enounter about 6 times as many theists in your life as you do atheists/agnostics/etc., and that the "godless" would have to be, on average, 6 times more dangerous than theists before it would be more likely that you be killed by "someone who is Godless".

However, you're about twice as likely to be killed in a motor vehicle accident as you are to be murdered by anyone, "godless" or not.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think what Archer is trying to prove with his argument, is that religion is just another excuse that evil people use to justify their actions.

I would agree with him, except that i'm sure that a few of the religionists through time, have actually thought that they were really doing it in the name of their religion.

Also, I think that in the case of many religions, because of their inherent natures, the religion lends itself more to this sort of abuse. Like the old saying goes, "without religion, you'd still have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but to get good people to do bad things, you need religion."

 

[Archer]

Says you. History has shown that Christians have not had any trouble justifying killing with the Bible, including the New Testament.

And do you know of a New Testament text that says a Christian can't draw inspiration from the Old Testament?

Damn right says me. The killing was inspired by man not their God! Why wont you guys admit that the truth is it is on the individual not the faith.

As far as Stalin and the like. Opportunity was the helping hand and if that opportunity presented to a christian then I guess you would blame Belief in God for that?

Faith has nothing to do with this.

 

[Archer]

I think what Archer is trying to prove with his argument, is that religion is just another excuse that evil people use to justify their actions.

I would agree with him, except that i'm sure that a few of the religionists through time, have actually thought that they were really doing it in the name of their religion.

I thought that is what I made clear. Well at least one person gets it and I know many more do.

 

[DeitySlayer]

You fail to acknowledge the second part of Badran's judgement: "i'm sure that a few of the religionists through time, have actually thought that they were really doing it in the name of their religion."

You also continue to try and pin the blame on atheism, rather than human nature.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Damn right says me. The killing was inspired by man not their God! Why wont you guys admit that the truth is it is on the individual not the faith.

I think it's because of our differing viewpoints. I don't think that religion was handed down by God, so I don't think there's some "pure" version that evil people defile. IMO, religion is what it is, good or bad.

As far as Stalin and the like. Opportunity was the helping hand and if that opportunity presented to a christian then I guess you would blame Belief in God for that?

Faith has nothing to do with this.

Sometimes it does. Yes, Christians and other theists will sometimes kill for reasons that don't have anything to do with their faith, but other times, it's their faith itself that leads them to kill. For instance, without his religion, James Kopp's motive for the murders he committed completely disappears.

 

[Badran]

Also, I think that in the case of many religions, because of their inherent natures, the religion lends itself more to this sort of abuse. Like the old saying goes, "without religion, you'd still have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but to get good people to do bad things, you need religion."

I agree with the fact that religion can be used as a cover for certain actions, and that some religionists actually perpetrated crime thinking it was for their religion.

I think Archer's point, is that these bad examples, putting in mind that some of them were lying when they claimed they were doing it for religion, are not enough to deem religion as a bad thing or as an evil thing in itself. I think that was his point in using the same tactic against Atheism, because it was used against religion in this thread. So he is saying that religion, is not the reason for the bad actions perpetrated under the name of religion.

 

[Archer]

Also, I think that in the case of many religions, because of their inherent natures, the religion lends itself more to this sort of abuse. Like the old saying goes, "without religion, you'd still have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things, but to get good people to do bad things, you need religion."

I would agree but historically we just like to murder, rape and pillage. We can choose to overcome this in many ways. To follow God or follow another philosophical world view is usually the norm. We all have bad apples.

 

[AxisMundi]

And this is relevant to . . . what?

Theospam

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree with the fact that religion can be used as a cover for certain actions, and that some religionists actually perpetrated crime thinking it was for their religion.

I think Archer's point, is that these bad examples, putting in mind that some of them were lying when they claimed they were doing it for religion, are not enough to deem religion as a bad thing or as an evil thing in itself. I think that was his point in using the same tactic against Atheism, because it was used against religion in this thread. So he is saying that religion, is not the reason for the bad actions perpetrated under the name of religion.

But here's the thing: while you may have one tyrant who lies when he claims to be doing God's work, this by itself does nothing unless you have an army of believers who are motivated by actual faith and who are convinced that the tyrant is telling the truth. IMO, it's there that the problems with religions lie: as a tool to motivate people to do evil things.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would agree but historically we just like to murder, rape and pillage. We can choose to overcome this in many ways. To follow God or follow another philosophical world view is usually the norm. We all have bad apples.

Why do you think that following God isn't compatible with murder, rape and pillaging? The God of the Bible is the same one who was happy when David slaughtered 200 of his enemies for no other reason than to make wedding presents out of their foreskins.

I don't see why "to follow God" necessarily means to overcome violence.

 

[Badran]

But here's the thing: while you may have one tyrant who lies when he claims to be doing God's work, this by itself does nothing unless you have an army of believers who are motivated by actual faith and who are convinced that the tyrant is telling the truth. IMO, it's there that the problems with religions lie: as a tool to motivate people to do evil things.

Of course, and this is the point that i was addressing earlier with Msizer and Autodidact. That i think, the real reason to blame for this, is people's inability to think for themselves in a rational manner. If you look at other wars, which have nothing to do with religion, you would see that leaders also manage to motivate people to enlist in the army under false mottos like "National Security" or whatever other excuses.

 

[Archer]

Why do you think that following God isn't compatible with murder, rape and pillaging? The God of the Bible is the same one who was happy when David slaughtered 200 of his enemies for no other reason than to make wedding presents out of their foreskins.

I don't see why "to follow God" necessarily means to overcome violence.

A Christian is not to follow these things. It was pointed out as the yoke of bondage. Jew=under law OT Christian=under grace NT. This is one of my biggest problems with Christian Churches they claim you are under grace and the OT is just for understanding but not to be forced upon the people then the tell you 10%. BS. I do understand where you sre comming from but I believe you are off base a tad. Perhaps when people were spoon fed the Bible by the church but this is not the case today. Today we have the willfully ignorant.

 

[Badran]

Today we have the willfully ignorant.

That is what i think the problem is all about, not really religion in specific, not anything else. Just people's inability to think rationally and over come whatever their leaders use as a manipulative tool against them.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A Christian is not to follow these things. It was pointed out as the yoke of bondage. Jew=under law OT Christian=under grace NT.

That particular episode with the wedding present foreskins has nothing to do with the law. It was a request from the groom's father that David fufilled as God looked on approvingly.

This is one of my biggest problems with Christian Churches they claim you are under grace and the OT is just for understanding but not to be forced upon the people then the tell you 10%. BS. I do understand where you sre comming from but I believe you are off base a tad. Perhaps when people were spoon fed the Bible by the church but this is not the case today. Today we have the willfully ignorant.

So it's "willfully ignorant" to put any weight on the OT at all? It seems to me that this is what you're saying.

Also, there's plenty of vague warlike language in the NT that people can seize upon as support for violence.

 

[Autodidact]

If I am so FOS then where are the rest of you? They are probably not the religious Atheists and don't want to be associated with them. You, Auto and others have shown your colore, your bigotry and true faith. You are so caught up in the Atheist religion that you have been blinded. You throw blanket accusations out there with statements like.

As to your statement coming from your frustration "As for your desire to be killed by some religious zealot - keep trumpeting YOUR religion and some other believer just might accommodate you.". Well statistically I would be more likely killed by one of your faith. So I guess you are a believer.

"And you STILL haven't given us any example of this "attack on people of faith" you were complaining about." Hell you have been doing it throughout this thread. I don't need to got posts from anywhere else. All that need be done is open the door and you Atheist zealots will prove it every time. I am not accusing all Atheists just those like you. You seem to show not just an indifference for religion but an absolute hatred for it. If a person like you came to power I think I would help the Muslims fulfill their prophecys and kill off or convert all the infidels and heretics. I would then deal with what I had left.

I understand. It's really frustrating when someone asks you to actually support your assertions. I can see why that would upset you.

 

[Archer]

That particular episode with the wedding present foreskins has nothing to do with the law. It was a request from the groom's father that David fufilled as God looked on approvingly.


So it's "willfully ignorant" to put any weight on the OT at all? It seems to me that this is what you're saying.

Also, there's plenty of vague warlike language in the NT that people can seize upon as support for violence.

I completely agree.

As to willfully ignorant? For many yes, they dont even know if what is preached is in the bible. The OT is a exellent source for the Christian to get an idea of the direction their life should go but that is about it, all that killing need stay in the OT.

 

[DeitySlayer]

all that killing need stay in the OT.

Why? Did God change his mind? New laws, new rules?

 

[Archer]

I understand. It's really frustrating when someone asks you to actually support your assertions. I can see why that would upset you.

I know this is ridiculous. Where is your proof that Christians are dangerous?

As I said I will show you mine if you show me yours:drool:

 

[Archer]

Why? Did God change his mind? New laws, new rules?

Read the Book. If you really don't know, otherwise kiss my foot