To Trump supporters

[David1967]

Diehard Trump supporters are delusional and part of a cult of personality. You'll never be able to reason with them. They've certainly demonstrated themselves capable of violence. It's been proven that hate crimes have gone up since Trump has been in office. White people feel more free to express their hatred of non-whites, Muslims, Jews, etc. Hell, even on this forum it appears that the amount of racism has gone up since 2016. I'm ashamed to share this country with so many whackjobs.

 

[Shushersbedamned]

Perhaps this is something only a Trump supporter is supposed to understand...
I'll find myself out.

 

[tytlyf]

Trump supporters are just repeating what Rush and Fox tell them on a daily basis. There is no evidence, they say. They said that from day 1.

There's no way any of the RW performance artists would know that.

 

[metis]

If the federal government can raid Trump's attorney with a blanket FISA warrant who is going to stop them from raiding anyone they want regardless of probable cause?

Attorney/client privilege does not allow the lawyer or the client to violate laws.

Also, the major players dealing with this warrant are all Republicans-- Mueller, Rosenstein, the N.Y. federal judge, Cohen, and Trump. In order to get such a warrant, "probable cause" had to be shown, which cannot be based on just hear-say or some whim.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If this happened to anyone else it would be outrage...

How so? There is an ongoing criminal investigation, and that is where it led.

There is no crime that you can do on US soil that would change the any of these rights.

You're actually that naive? Decades ago Japanese-American citizens committed no crimes yet they were stripped of many rights.

This investigation is so freaking over to me it's almost a joke.

Numerous indictments and now convictions makes the investigation a joke?

Is this normal?
Is it proper & legal?

For a criminal investigation, yes. Even HIPAA laws can be bypassed, to an extent, when it comes to a criminal investigation.

 

[Revoltingest]

For a criminal investigation, yes. Even HIPAA laws can be bypassed, to an extent, when it comes to a criminal investigation.

I don't recall any instance of a lawyer's office being raided
by authorities when the client is only under investigation.
Know of any examples & their legal justification?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Also, the major players dealing with this warrant are all Republicans-- Mueller, Rosenstein, the N.Y. federal judge, Cohen, and Trump. In order to get such a warrant, "probable cause" had to be shown, which cannot be based on just hear-say or some whim.

I'm pretty sure Mueller went over the details of his own evidence and probably cause many times over before submitting it to a judge to have the lawyer's office raided. Anything less would have been a careless mistake, and I'm pretty sure Mueller also knows that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't recall any instance of a lawyer's office being raided
by authorities when the client is only under investigation.

It would seem in this case Mueller was able to establish probable cause that Trump's lawyer would have information needed regarding this investigation.
And also do keep in mind Trump has a history of having records lost/destroyed before the courts can get them. That may have also been a reason for a raid.

 

[Revoltingest]

It would seem in this case Mueller was able to establish probable cause that Trump's lawyer would have information needed regarding this investigation.
And also do keep in mind Trump has a history of having records lost/destroyed before the courts can get them. That may have also been a reason for a raid.

Still, it's an extraordinary step.
What justification has been offered?

A problem is that such a tactic could dissuade lawyers
from representing a client against whom government
might do this.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What justification has been offered?

How many details so far have actually been released?

A problem is that such a tactic could dissuade lawyers
from representing a client against whom government
might do this.

Lawyers don't gain reputation by taking easy cases.

 

[metis]

I'm pretty sure Mueller went over the details of his own evidence and probably cause many times over before submitting it to a judge to have the lawyer's office raided. Anything less would have been a careless mistake, and I'm pretty sure Mueller also knows that.

I really don't doubt for one minute that this is true.

One good thing about this is that it has being taken out of Mueller's hands, so even if Trump fires Mueller the Stormy Daniels case still will continue on. And going by Trump's reactions, it appears that he fears that more than the allegations of collusion and obstruction. It definitely appears that he is in panic mode with this.

But the staunch Trump supporters don't really care as they don't think morals really matter in this case for their Super-Hero. IOW, they're empathy-challenged, and it's the issue of empathy that is characteristic of the teachings of Christianity, Judaism, Humanism, and others-- "Do unto others.", the "law of love", "dharma", etc.

Sorry to get preachy, but I do accept donations.

 

[stvdv]

Below is my personal opinion. Totally not rational, no proof. Just a feeling I get from the news they allow dutch people to read. Can be far from the truth. But even if there is 25% truth in it, I think it is really bad.

Just a few Trump quotes we get to read in Holland [all his own words]:
1: GrabThem@TP: Really, Americans chose a president who is proud on this habit of his
2: Putin watch out, missiles are coming (Syria)
3: Putin sit tight, hold on [Missiles are on their way]
4: USA needs to confiscate all the oil in Middle East [we will make huge profits that way]. Because we lost so many men fighting there, and they should be compensated, now they live on the street. Then the reporter asked "but is the oil not theirs".Oh, yes we can give the people of the Middle East also a little of it.

I read that D.T watches hours of TV. Daila Lama warned once "TelePoison". Obvious seeing D.T tweets + interviews that is what happened. He totally lost all sense of reality. Only mind and ego.

1: The first is a disgrace for all males in the world and total disrespect for all female. Oke if you use this kind of language, but please don't get president. Just because of that, I am personally very happy they raided his office; and hope they find prove that he is lying about this pornstar. I would be surprised if D.T is not lying ["but miracles do happen" I heard a sweet american girl called Grace saying who won America got talent]

I recently read there used to be a president who once said that speaking the truth is most important for a president. Very wise, so not Trump.

2+3: I was holding my breath when "Wild West" Trump started his "Wild West" twitter against North Korea. That was childish and dumm IMHO. But talking like this to Putin is the most stupid thing to do. NK, no big problem, they are poor, no change if war breaks out. KJU only fires words. Putin might fire bombs [Putin doesn't show emotions like D.T, he has self control; but i can feel his anger building up; I am not blind. And Putin is the army, D.T avoided the army, maybe this is all about proving he is a man afterall].

This is your president [IMHO]
D.T still sees WW3 as the beginning of his Video Game [proven by his tweets 2+3]

4: I hope I do not need to explain anything here. More stupid I have never heard anyone talk. This was an interview I heard and I saw with my own eyes that D.T was uttering this non-sense. [D.T might be starting war to take the heat out of his pants; when there is war, they won't look at this pornstar problem still hanging. I met many narcissists; they just act like this; can't except being exposed. But lie so much, that they start believing their own lies]

So personally I am very happy his lawyers office is raided. Because it might be the only way to get a better president. The only way to prevent WW3. Sometimes a thorn is needed to remove a bigger thorn; to avoid a catostraphy (WW3). I always look at the bigger picture.

 

[Riders]

Wow dutch people get some news on Trump. I guess you speak both dutch and english? My last name is dutch we originated from belggium in the 1400s but my ancesters spoke dutch till the 1800s in the dutch reform churches of America. Id like to learn to speak dutch sometime myself.


I apologize thats tottally off topic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Let's try treating this as neither a pro nor anti Trump matter.
Suppose that all we know is....
- Someone (party & identity unknown) is being investigated.
- The FBI raided that someone's lawyer's office as part of that investigation.

Is this normal?
Is it proper & legal?

Is this normal? No, and your second question should be more in the form of "Can this be proper and legal?" The answer to that would be yes, it can be proper and legal. And that appears to be the case with Trump. Though Trump supporters might complain they have not been able to support their claims of impropriety.

 

[Revoltingest]

Is this normal? No, and your second question should be more in the form of "Can this be proper and legal?" The answer to that would be yes, it can be proper and legal. And that appears to be the case with Trump. Though Trump supporters might complain they have not been able to support their claims of impropriety.

No, the 2nd question is what I intended.
I wondered what people have heard.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, the 2nd question is what I intended.
I wondered what people have heard.

Then the answer is still "Yes". If one takes the oh so huge step of reading news stories one finds out why it was done and why it was legal. Not only that it also demonstrated that not all Trump supporters are Kool-Aid drinkers. The man that okayed the raid not only voted for tRump, he gave a sizable campaign donation to the man.

 

[Riders]

Mueller is a Repunlican.

 

[Mindmaster]

Attorney/client privilege does not allow the lawyer or the client to violate laws.

Also, the major players dealing with this warrant are all Republicans-- Mueller, Rosenstein, the N.Y. federal judge, Cohen, and Trump. In order to get such a warrant, "probable cause" had to be shown, which cannot be based on just hear-say or some whim.

Is there an investigation into his lawyer? See that's the problem...

If they get a warrant on you can they search everyone you know including your family members and everyone else on RF? And, no... FISA warrants do not need probable cause and that's why I've been against them being used on US citizens forever. The mechanism was originally for surveillance of foreign targets of interest, and used for that I'd not have a problem. In this case, it's being used to circumvent the entirety of our legal process. You know, where you have to prove someone actually did something to search them... FISA was about intelligence gathering NOT finding evidence to take to court.

Again, I just find this laughable only in the way that they've completely screwed it up. There is no way any judge is going to allow them to admit any of this 'evidence' to a court case in the USA. It is a witch hunt and it'll look like one to and judge worth anything.. The thing prosecutors have to do is not only present the evidence, but also demonstrate why they even had it in the first place. It's simply not reasonable to presume every single person that worked with Trump is in on whatever Trump is into. I'm just going back to the law of averages here - if they had something on Trump they'd easily have been able to bring it to the courts and it'd be actionable. To the extent they've gone I'd just presume it's NOTHING absolutely nothing and now all these involved parties are scrambling for the tiniest shred of anything so they don't all get sacked immediately.

 

[Mindmaster]

How so? There is an ongoing criminal investigation, and that is where it led.

What crime has Trump done or even been accused of? Better question, what crime did Trump's lawyer do? What justifies such a sweeping investigation other than hearsay?

That's the problem I have with it all not that I think Trump is some squeaky clean guy. The goal simply seems to be to defame someones character because if there was something you could convict him on he'd already be facing the gavel.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If the federal government can raid Trump's attorney with a blanket FISA warrant who is going to stop them from raiding anyone they want regardless of probable cause?

Attorney's know things that hurt the client often in the interest of protecting them in cases adequately. It's not about Trump anymore, it's just a complete disregard for both his 4/5th Amendment rights and attorney-client privilege. By taking this step, they've nearly guaranteed that anything they've found would be unable to be prosecuted. My hunch is they know that and this is just a deep state tossing his garbage bins to find scraps and hoping they can find anything to blackmail him with. It just doesn't make sense to do at all in regard to a legal perspective, IMHO.

It's not even about Trump anymore to me, but rather troubling to think that they can do this to anyone. The problem is _SO_ much bigger than Trump.

That's why there is a "taint team" pouring through documents as we speak.

Michael Cohen raid and attorney-client privilege: What is a "taint team"? - CNNPolitics
What about attorney-client privilege? How the FBI can obtain a warrant for Cohen's office