To whom would you turn, for advice?

[Trailblazer]

But the hummer has empirical evidence of humans, something we do not have for God. It's not a question of understanding.

A hummer does not know what empirical evidence is... just like humans do not know what God is.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

A hummer does not know what empirical evidence is... just like humans do not know what God is.

Does not matter-- the little humming bird can recognize that humans not only exist? But also can be either dangerous or helpful (bird feeders).

This is because the hummer has evidence of his eyes, ears and sense of smell, that humans exist in his world. The hummer has no need to actually understand humans, to recognize that humans may be a boon or a bane or simply neutral.

You cannot say the same thing about gods. At all. Seeing as how the #1 principle attribute of gods-- all gods--- is one of being so obscure that there is a question if they even exist or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

Does not matter-- the little humming bird can recognize that humans not only exist? But also can be either dangerous or helpful (bird feeders).

Good point Bob...
Physical vision is not the only kind of vision that exists... Humans with spiritual vision can recognize that God exists and He can either be dangerous or helpful.

 

[Agent]

Put on your seat belt and ride it out cause you're going down the roller coaster ride to the bottom

yee haw!

 

[SomeRandom]

Three options: 1) The most high God Jehovah,
2) Satan/Demons or
3) Humans ?

Why, the Cthulu monster, obviously.

 

[Draka]

Quite honestly, if the 2nd option were "Lucifer" I'd pick that one in a heartbeat. I mean...

 

[Valjean]

A hummer does not know what empirical evidence is... just like humans do not know what God is.

OK... So what's your point? We're not talking about understanding. Simple perception is all that's needed to establish existence.

The hummingbird has evidence of humans. They can see humans and hear them. They're bold little things and will perch on your finger. Humans are tangible to them, and tangible to any other hummers, who see the same thing.
None of this is true of our apprehension of God.

Good point Bob...
Physical vision is not the only kind of vision that exists... Humans with spiritual vision can recognize that God exists and He can either be dangerous or helpful.

So only some humans have spiritual vision, like only some humans are tetrachromic?
Do all humans with spiritual vision perceive the same thing? Does everyone describe the same God, the world over?

 

[Trailblazer]

OK... So what's your point? We're not talking about understanding. Simple perception is all that's needed to establish existence.

The hummingbird has evidence of humans. They can see humans and hear them. They're bold little things and will perch on your finger. Humans are tangible to them, and tangible to any other hummers, who see the same thing.
None of this is true of our apprehension of God.

No, there is no way to perceive God physically because God is not physical.

So only some humans have spiritual vision, like only some humans are tetrachromic?

Do all humans with spiritual vision perceive the same thing? Does everyone describe the same God, the world over?

No, they don't. People perceive God differently according to their religion, their understanding of who God is, and also according to their personality.

 

[Valjean]

No, there is no way to perceive God physically because God is not physical.

No, they don't. People perceive God differently according to their religion, their understanding of who God is, and also according to their personality.

So if God is imperceptible, and impressions of Him vary, how can we have any confidence He exists at all? You admit there is no more evidence of Him than there is for invisible pink unicorns. I doubt you believe in unicorns.

 

[Trailblazer]

So if God is imperceptible, and impressions of Him vary, how can we have any confidence He exists at all? You admit there is no more evidence of Him than there is for invisible pink unicorns. I doubt you believe in unicorns.

The evidence that God exists is the Messengers of God that God sends with messages.
That is the only real evidence.

 

[Agent]

Psalm83[18] That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

 

[Valjean]

The evidence that God exists is the Messengers of God that God sends with messages.
That is the only real evidence.

But there are thousands of people proclaiming themselves messengers of God, or delivering messages from Him. Religiosity like this is a common psychopathological symptom. I met a couple of these messengers myself, in my psych rotation at Sheppard-Pratt hospital. Every once in a while one of them manages to attract a following, and every once in a while one of these groups chances to found a recognized religion.
If their messages were consistent that would, at least, be some evidence of a common revelation, but they're not.

What we need is tangible, empirical evidence.

 

[ChristineM]

But a hummingbird can no more understand a human than a human can understand God.
Just because a hummingbird cannot understand humans does not mean humans do not exist...
Just because humans cannot understand God does not mean God does not exist.

So you think you understand a hummingbird?

How do you know they cannot understand a human?

And of course there is proof hummingbirds and humans exist.

rvidncee

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Good point Bob...
Physical vision is not the only kind of vision that exists... Humans with spiritual vision can recognize that God exists and He can either be dangerous or helpful.

So you are now projecting that I am blind, then?

Because I tried for over 40 years to "see" god-- eventually, even as stubborn as I am, I realized that there was no god to see.

I would say, instead, that you are hallucinating. We know that hallucinations do occur within humans. In fact, the majority of humans experience this on a nightly basis: We call these dreams.

And it can also be shown, that people are able to go into a dream-state while awake.

These are well known phenomena, for which there is ample evidence (and research too).

In direct contrast with all gods: For which there is zero evidence, and all the research in the subject has turned up nothing.

 

[viole]

Three options: 1) The most high God Jehovah,
2) Satan/Demons or
3) Humans ?

It depends, my main problem at present, is that I cannot decide about the furniture in my new living room. Cannot decide between grey and black.

Who shall I ask?

I am shy to ask Satan, since I heard he is an unpleasant character, but I am not sure whether Jehovah is a qualified inner architect. What do you think?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It depends, my main problem at present, is that I cannot decide about the furniture in my new living room. Cannot decide between grey and black.

Who shall I ask?

I am shy to ask Satan, since I heard he is an unpleasant character, but I am not sure whether Jehovah is a qualified inner architect. What do you think?

Ciao

- viole

Well, one thing is certain, if we go JUST by the bible.

The god character appears to be quite fond of playing tricks and lying to his followers, among other unpleasantness.

Moreover? If you do ask, and fail to follow his desires? He's just likely to flood your place out of spite, or perhaps drop a flaming meteor or other disaster on your house.

No, Satan has the distinction of being the only one to tell the unvarnished facts. Look at the Eden story: God lies, Adam lies, Eve lies. Only Satan (as a snake) tells the unvarnished facts.

So it may well be that being Truthful? He gets a bad rap.

(and pay no attention to him being called the "father of lies"... that came from bible's god, who as we know, lied to Adam in the very first story-- he has no credibility at all)

 

[Trailblazer]

But there are thousands of people proclaiming themselves messengers of God, or delivering messages from Him. Religiosity like this is a common psychopathological symptom. I met a couple of these messengers myself, in my psych rotation at Sheppard-Pratt hospital. Every once in a while one of them manages to attract a following, and every once in a while one of these groups chances to found a recognized religion.
If their messages were consistent that would, at least, be some evidence of a common revelation, but they're not.

Simply because there are thousands of people proclaiming themselves messengers of God who are false does not mean that there is no true Messenger of God. If one wants to know which Messenger is true then they have to do the research in order to determine that. It is not at all difficult to dismiss the false ones right off the bat, because they do not have a history, a mission, scriptures, or a religion.

Their spiritual teachings are consistent but each new Messenger brings new social teachings and laws and a new message which is suited for the times in which they appear.

What we need is tangible, empirical evidence.

We can never have that kind of evidence for God since God is immaterial. That is one reason why God sends Messengers; they are tangible and empirical evidence of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you think you understand a hummingbird?

Maybe I don’t but ornithologists do.

How do you know they cannot understand a human?

Ask an ornithologist.

And of course there is proof hummingbirds and humans exist.

And of course there is evidence that God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are now projecting that I am blind, then?

Because I tried for over 40 years to "see" god-- eventually, even as stubborn as I am, I realized that there was no god to see.

I would say, instead, that you are hallucinating. We know that hallucinations do occur within humans. In fact, the majority of humans experience this on a nightly basis: We call these dreams.

And it can also be shown, that people are able to go into a dream-state while awake.

These are well known phenomena, for which there is ample evidence (and research too).

In direct contrast with all gods: For which there is zero evidence, and all the research in the subject has turned up nothing.

I am not suggesting you are blind. I cannot SEE GOD either. I only know He exists because of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. Before I heard of the Baha’i Faith I never even thought about God, and I was not searching for God.

The only evidence for God is the Messengers of God because that is the only evidence God provides.

 

[ChristineM]

Maybe I don’t but ornithologists do.

Ask an ornithologist.

And of course there is evidence that God exists.

You think?

An specialist ornithologist would understand the actions of a humming bird but please explain how they know its thinking?

There is? Every time you have made this claim (several to me alone) you have never been able to back it up with credible proof. Has something new and important occured that im not aware of?