To whom would you turn, for advice?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I am not suggesting you are blind. I cannot SEE GOD either. I only know He exists because of the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. Before I heard of the Baha’i Faith I never even thought about God, and I was not searching for God.

The only evidence for God is the Messengers of God because that is the only evidence God provides.

That absolutely makes no sense whatsoever.

What sort of Supreme And Superior Being, would require such a ludicrous and clumsy method as to pick Special Favorites to represent it's Requirements to all humanity?

In an ordinary school classroom, is it okay for Teacher to select one of the students in class, and then? ONLY SPEAK TO THAT STUDENT FROM THEN ON? In fact, none of the other students ever hear from Teacher again-- they don't even see if Teacher is even there or not!

No, the ONLY thing the rest of the class sees? Is the Special Teacher's Pet -- who has to explain everything, and has to provide all the proof that he is Teacher's Pet in the first place!

Not only is that incredibly immoral-- to elevate Teacher's Pet above everyone else (to their detriment from then on), it's incredibly clumsy too.

Teacher's Pet, being just a mere student, often gets the messages WRONG. But, since Teacher absolutely refuses to interfere?

THE WRONG MESSAGES GO UNCORRECTED FROM THEN ON.

So, I'm not buying it. Simply because it's immoral and overly complicated.

NOT something you want in an All Powerful God.

 

[Valjean]

Thousands of "messengers" with thousands of conflicting messages. How are we to choose?
We need empirical evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thousands of "messengers" with thousands of conflicting messages. How are we to choose?
We need empirical evidence.

No, there are not thousands, not at all. If you look at the list of criteria that a "real" Messenger of God has to meet all but one will be eliminated from your list. You would not have to do very much research at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

That absolutely makes no sense whatsoever.

What sort of Supreme And Superior Being, would require such a ludicrous and clumsy method as to pick Special Favorites to represent it's Requirements to all humanity?

In an ordinary school classroom, is it okay for Teacher to select one of the students in class, and then? ONLY SPEAK TO THAT STUDENT FROM THEN ON? In fact, none of the other students ever hear from Teacher again-- they don't even see if Teacher is even there or not!

The Messenger of God is not a special favorite. He is the one who is qualified for the job. I just got home from an all day staff meeting and there were a lot of top level managers there. I did not feel slighted because I never made it to that level. Those managers were qualified for the jobs they got so they were selected. They are worthy of the positions they hold.

A Messenger of God is the teacher and He is speaking to ALL of humanity. He is not playing favorites. God was not playing favorites by choosing Him because he was the one suited to do the job.

Not everyone can be a top level manager and not everyone can be a Messenger of God. There is nothing immoral about that. That is just the way it is. Everyone is different and we all hold different positions in life depending upon our qualifications and what we are good at.

 

[Vaderecta]

Three options: 1) The most high God Jehovah,
2) Satan/Demons or
3) Humans ?

Probably start with Reddit. Might post something here. (There are some really intelligent people in RF who are very cognizant of what they post and why... don't sleep on RF)

I might google ****. Talk things over with my sons and wife if things get there.

 

[Trailblazer]

You think?

An specialist ornithologist would understand the actions of a humming bird but please explain how they know its thinking?

No, they probably would not know its thinking.

There is? Every time you have made this claim (several to me alone) you have never been able to back it up with credible proof. Has something new and important occured that im not aware of?

No, I have nothing new. I never said I had proof, just evidence.

 

[ChristineM]

No, they probably would not know its thinking.

No, I have nothing new. I never said I had proof, just evidence.

Correct.

Been there before. We do not see eye to eye on evidentiary requirements.

 

[nPeace]

Three options: 1) The most high God Jehovah,
2) Satan/Demons or
3) Humans ?

#1 always works for me, being always reliable and right, while #2, is always wrong, and #3 is not always reliable, and is mostly wrong.

 

[Valjean]

No, there are not thousands, not at all. If you look at the list of criteria that a "real" Messenger of God has to meet all but one will be eliminated from your list. You would not have to do very much research at all.

Are you sure you haven't cherry picked those criteria unique to your chosen messenger?

 

[nPeace]

We can know that the god of Judeo-Christian scripture cannot exist as described because it is described as simultaneously having mutually exclusive qualities, such as being perfect, yet also making mistakes and regretting them:

[1] "As for Jehovah, his way is perfect - 2 Samuel 22:31

[2] "As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD's word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him." Psalm 18:30

[3] "His work is perfect, for all his ways are just. A trustworthy God who does no wrong, he is righteous and straight." - Deuteronomy 32:4

[4] "Be therefore perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect" - Matt 5:48

yet

[5] "And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart." - Genesis 6:6​

Doesn't sound too perfect to me. The solution was also imperfect - drowning most terrestrial life for the sins of man, and starting over again using the same breeding stock. Guess what? It's the same sinful human race with all of the same warts and scars - greed, deception, theft, violence, etc.. Yet He is said to be perfect anyway.

The god described does not exist because it cannot. Actual gods would have to be either perfect or imperfect, but not both - at least not in the same sense at the same time.

It's the old married bachelor thing. By definition, no such thing exists or could exist, again assuming that we mean married and bachelor in the same sense at the same time, where bachelor means a never-been-married man.. One could be a married bachelor of arts.

This isn't to say that no gods exist, just that if they do, they don't violate the Law of Noncontradiction. We can't rule out the possibility of gods existing, but we can rule out the logically impossible ones.

Once, when having this discussion in the past, I was told that just because there are errors in the description of Jehovah, it doesn't mean He doesn't exist. I thought that that was odd. It would be like saying that married bachelors exist if you fix the error that the bachelor is married or that the married guy is still a bachelor.

There are many other examples of contradictory and mutually exclusive features of Jehovah, such as granting free will while being omniscient, or existing out of time but still acting such as creating man, and act that requires that there be a human-free before state and a post-creation state featuring humanity. It's one or the other in both cases, but not both simultaneously.

I think what the person might have been trying to get across, is that reading a letter that has a mistake doesn't prove whether someone exists or not.
A boss may get his secretary to write a letter for him which includes some details about the boss. If the secretary makes a mistake in the letter, because the reader concludes that the boss doesn't exist, because of that error, doesn't make the reader right.
Using such a gauge will always lead to a wrong conclusion - not only because it's faulty, but also because the reader is imperfect, and trying to arrive at a conclusion about something that's perfect - in this case.
It's like using a mistake as a correction, imo.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you sure you haven't cherry picked those criteria unique to your chosen messenger?

No, they would apply to any Messenger, but it just so happens only one Messenger meets the criteria.

The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a true Messenger from God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that He wrote;
• What others have written about Him;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, there are not thousands, not at all. If you look at the list of criteria that a "real" Messenger of God has to meet all but one will be eliminated from your list. You would not have to do very much research at all.

And? Who decided on this ... ahem... "criteria" in the first place?

Your messenger? How convenient is that?!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The Messenger of God is not a special favorite. He is the one who is qualified for the job. I just got home from an all day staff meeting and there were a lot of top level managers there. I did not feel slighted because I never made it to that level. Those managers were qualified for the jobs they got so they were selected. They are worthy of the positions they hold.

A Messenger of God is the teacher and He is speaking to ALL of humanity. He is not playing favorites. God was not playing favorites by choosing Him because he was the one suited to do the job.

Not everyone can be a top level manager and not everyone can be a Messenger of God. There is nothing immoral about that. That is just the way it is. Everyone is different and we all hold different positions in life depending upon our qualifications and what we are good at.

So, basically, the god you believe in? Is no better than a Top Level Bureaucrat?

Again-- not much of a god you worship, is it? Kinda lame, if you ask me.

I expect Superior Workmanship from any being worthy of that title-- and yours? Just doesn't measure up.

God is an ordinary Bureaucrat. Ain't that a peach?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

#1 always works for me, being always reliable and right, while #2, is always wrong, and #3 is not always reliable, and is mostly wrong.

How would you know #1 is always reliable and right? Since it's obvious you don't do anything else?

And how could you tell the difference between a telepathic message from #1, and a telepathic message from #2?

Because #1 feeds into what you were going to do all along?

Hmmmm..... I perceive a bit of ... ambiguity here.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, they would apply to any Messenger, but it just so happens only one Messenger meets the criteria.

The evidence that indicates that Baha’u’llah was a true Messenger from God is as follows:

• What He was like as a person (His character);
• What He did during His mission on earth;
• The history of His Cause, from the time He appeared moving forward;
• The scriptures that He wrote;
• What others have written about Him;
• The Bible prophecies that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The prophecies of other religions that He fulfilled by His coming;
• The predictions He made that have come to pass;
• The religion that He established (followers), what they have done and are doing now.

Actually? None of those things you list are all that important in the Grand Scheme Of Things. You failed to list "Intelligence" or "logical" or "rational".

And without those? A really adept Chimpanzee could possibly make your list.... especially if he had a large group of followers writing his copy material for him, starting with 10 minutes after he died.

No-- your "criteria" is self-serving, and meaningless.

 

[Trailblazer]

And? Who decided on this ... ahem... "criteria" in the first place?

Your messenger? How convenient is that?!

Some of those criteria are mine, some of them were Baha’u’llah’s.

Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Three options: 1) The most high God Jehovah,
2) Satan/Demons or
3) Humans ?

Humans

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Some of those criteria are mine, some of them were Baha’u’llah’s.

Notebook: Never trust the word of a con-man, when his words are entirely self-serving.

"Never give a sucker an even break." ~ P.T. Barnum.

 

[sayak83]

Three options: 1) The most high God Jehovah,
2) Satan/Demons or
3) Humans ?

I will turn to Google.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I will turn to Google.

So, basically, crowd sourcing. Good call.