TotD: Was the serpent in Genesis Satan?

[Heathen Hammer]

If you can justify that kind of obvious, egregious lie, then you can fall for anything.

 

[Wayfaring Stranger]

What do you mean, how is that?

It's okay it got fixed, I thought I dropped a page or something like that. lol

He accurately described the wisdom they'd gain,

..and... were they too wise to walk over to the tree of life an chow down there also? Why won't that work for Satan? Because he was given some from the tree of knowledge of good and evil as his 'walk through the garden'. I waited a bit hoping you would update this part of the post. To be like God and Angels in addition to the wisdom there also came an immortal body, you got yours? I seem to be headed down the same path as the rest of my ancestors. Then there was the not being given in marriage thing. Why have a child when it can fall into sin and be sent to the lake (with the parents) or wait till you 'get passed on to a place' where having a child is where it can never be tempted to sin. Who has the better plan, the 1/3 that fell or the 2/3 that did not take a wife?

that God didn't want them to have it,

For the sake of the (angelic)children. Does that mean the ones alive for the 1,000 years also stay the same in New Jerusalem as people that are said to be equal to angels will also ascend to the 3rd heaven at some point?

When God created Law He also created a point in the future that judgment would come for the ones under law. Angelic Law was set to be the last event before this heaven and earth expired and the new heaven and earth were opened for the ones who had a good judgment. Revelation has it as when Satan is sent to the fiery lake for beings from Heaven, the Great White Throne is the next event and that is when Adam's judgment comes. That is the last event for men concerning salvation before the new earth starts. Men were always destined to know about good and evil and be immortal in the perfected earth that is large scale garden. The preferred way was to have children at a reduced rate and when the cross event happened everyone would eat, die for 3 days and be resurrected to the Great White Throne Event. (or some similar variation)

and that they wouldn't die as God described,

They weren't immortal like angels and they did die in the allotted time.

2Pe:3:8:
But,
beloved,
be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,
and a thousand years as one day.

The 1,000 year reign is viewed in OT as being the 'same day' in that when the wrath starts it is over the 'same day' but the OT was not taught that there was a special period for the elect in that the garden was restored to Israel and all people would be in a true garden when Satan was released and came against them. Rightfully called the 'glorious city' and the people in training (1,000 reps of the same task) are perfected enough that fire from God will not make them fearful so they do not get sent to the lake.

The dai is a 1,000 years applies to Judgment Day, called 1 day but because of the number of people getting full pardons it does take 1,000 of out yreas so they are judged by that standard rather than the 120 determined fo when the law changed with Moses who died just short of being 120.

which if you actually read it,

Why didn't I think of that?

lists like the apples was poison to touch or eat; and that implies, with none of this semantic nonsense, immediate death.

Here I was thinking that when they woke as a married couple God had already left on vacation so it was Adam who added on the 'do not touch' for 'extra security'. God gives one to rule to something called 'one flesh'.

Read the actual words in Hebrew.

Been there done that, same result, Adam and Eve are the earthly model of the relationship between God and the Holy Spirit, image is physical like 5 fingers on 1 hand and likeness is the relationship that only exists between a husband and wife.
God saw creation like Ge:1 describes, the Holy Spirit saw it like Ge:2 covers starting when Adam became a living soul (start of day 6)

And dieing a thousand years later... um, that's nothing. It's like a non-threat. If I threatened you with death, but said it was to be put off for a thousand years.. would you even bat an eye?

No, I would kill you first and then let some body language show. Tried it the other way once, didn't work out that well for me that time. Don't need a whole bunch of practice to learn the lesson there. lol I was the 'other guy' in you should see 'see the other guy'.

2Pe:3:8:
But,
beloved,
be not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years,
and a thousand years as one day.

Since they never ate from the Tree of Life they were not immortal to begin with.

Why not go and eat, no fruit until the day the 7th trump sounds???

What semantic *quackery comes in terms of God seeing Time differently, means nothing to mortals. His view of it is irrelevant. The serpent spoke the truth.

and then they died and everything they were to care for died also.

Also irrelevant. They had God lying to their faces back then... yes, we're better now.

Do you think Christ would have been about 3 when Adam was born. A day for Him might be 10,000 years

'Spiritual death' is an afterthought, made up by apologists to cover the fact that they didn't die, and that God lied. Spiritual death is never discussed by anyone in the tale, where it counts.

Maybe it isn't discussed because it isn't involved in a literal Kingdom. Perhaps being called an 'old man' on this earth is a myth.

Jas:4:14:
Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow.
For what is your life?
It is even a vapour,
that appeareth for a little time,
and then vanisheth away.

 

[Wayfaring Stranger]

1Th:5:21:
Prove all things;
hold fast that which is good.

 

[Wayfaring Stranger]

Ge:5:5:
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

70 years short of an angelic day.

 

[Sleeppy]

That's irrelevant. Genesis 3 clearly indicates that the snake merely told the truth, albeit with devious intent.

He lied. "Dying, you will not surely die?" They died.

 

[Sleeppy]

He lied. "Dying, you will not surely die?" They died.

Not to mention the other lies as well.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

stuff

So basically semantic **ery is necessary to make it not a lie. Got ya.

Those are the words used. if you need to secretly mean something else when you say them, then you are lying.

I could also comment on the switchery done concerning 'every day to God is like a thousand years'.. then, why separate literal day and night on earth, for the 24-hr period, and also call it 'day'? When giving a lethal warning to someone, you mean a figurative day and not a literal day?

It must be vexing for normal people who talk to people who believe this stuff. You can never ever trust them to mean what they say.

The rest of your posts were irrelevant scripture quoting rather than conversation, or outright nearly incoherent, I'm sorry I won't bother with those.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

He lied. "Dying, you will not surely die?" They died.

A thousand years later.

Im going to kill you. In a thousand years. Does that concern you? At all?

 

[Sleeppy]

A thousand years later.

Im going to kill you. In a thousand years. Does that concern you? At all?

Nobody killed them; they died in a thousand years, according to what time was appointed them, for whatever reasons God gave.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

"Nobody killed them" - that's the best you can do? God killed them. And you avoided the question, I notice.

Well, I must apologize then, because that isn't good enough for me, looking at things on a rational level.

If one issues a command, where one has deliberately misconstrued meaning, where one keeps dire consequences secret, or where one equivocates and sets the field in a way that smacks of subterfuge, I will observe this to be dishonest. Since God knows everything, then making false statements is identical to lying, for him. And that is what happened, plainly, in the Garden.

When deeds don't match words, you have a dishonest being. Man, or God, it's all one.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

I must admit, I find a funny simile for this: it's like a scene in a movie where the villain has the hero dangling over a cliff, by a rope or branch

Villain: "Tell me where the money is, and I'll let you go."

Hero: *tells where the money is*

Villain: *cuts the rope*
"Well, I said I'd let you go."

 

[McBell]

They didn't die for a thousand years.


A THOUSAND YEARS

"In the day you eat of it"


Truth?

OK, if you say so

um...

Genesis 3:3-5 (KJV)
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
​

How do you get the idea that the day they touch or eat of it, they die?

 

[McBell]

If you can justify that kind of obvious, egregious lie, then you can fall for anything.

Except that based on what the verses actually say, your proposed lie does not exist....

 

[McBell]

Not to mention the other lies as well.

do tell

 

[Heathen Hammer]

You're quoting the King James version, I was speaking of the Hebrew.
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

FOR IN THE DAY

That is what the verse actually says.

 

[McBell]

You're quoting the King James version, I was speaking of the Hebrew.
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.'

FOR IN THE DAY

source?
And no, merely claiming "The Hebrew" will not work.
Especially given you presented "The Hebrew" in English...

 

[Heathen Hammer]

source?
And no, merely claiming "The Hebrew" will not work.

Genesis 2 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Your source? There are probably several versions of the KJ... you'll note how they changed the wording.

 

[McBell]

Genesis 2 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

A screen shot from YOUR source:

Your source? There are probably several versions of the KJ... you'll note how they changed the wording.

My sources:

Genesis 3:5

(ASV)
for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

(BBE)
For God sees that on the day when you take of its fruit, your eyes will be open, and you will be as gods, having knowledge of good and evil.

(Bishops)
For God doth knowe, that the same day that ye eate therof, your eyes shall be opened, and ye shalbe eue as gods, knowyng good and euyll.

(CEV)
"God understands what will happen on the day you eat fruit from that tree. You will see what you have done, and you will know the difference between right and wrong, just as God does."

(Darby)
but God knows that in the day ye eat of it, your eyes will be opened, and ye will be as God, knowing good and evil.

(DRB)
For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil.

(ERV)
God knows that if you eat the fruit from that tree you will learn about good and evil, and then you will be like God!"

(ESV)
For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

(Geneva)
But God doeth knowe, that when ye shall eate thereof, your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and euill.

(GNB)
God said that because he knows that when you eat it, you will be like God and know what is good and what is bad."

(GW)
"God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened. You'll be like God, knowing good and evil."

(HOT)
כי ידע אלהים כי ביום אכלכם ממנו ונפקחו עיניכם והייתם כאלהים ידעי טוב ורע׃

(ISV)
"Even God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you'll become like God, knowing good and evil."

(JPS)
for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.'

(KJV)
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

(LITV)
for God knows that in the day you eat of it, even your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

(MKJV)
for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

(RV)
for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

(Vulgate)
scit enim Deus quod in quocumque die comederitis ex eo aperientur oculi vestri et eritis sicut dii scientes bonum et malum

(Webster)
For God doth know, that in the day ye eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened: and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

(YLT)
for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it--your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.'



​

 

[McBell]

Genesis 2 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Your source? There are probably several versions of the KJ... you'll note how they changed the wording.

Hmmm....
You switched verses on me and I did not catch that until now....

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
​

My apologies.

EDIT NOTE:
after reading this I realize that it may come across as though I am accusing you of foul play.
I am not.
You clearly posted that it was verse 17 and I completely missed it.
The error was on my part, not yours.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If you can justify that kind of obvious, egregious lie, then you can fall for anything.

We've been over this before. Declaring it "an egregious lie" is simply ignorant rant. See, for example, here from September 2007.