TotD: Was the serpent in Genesis Satan?

[jtartar]

Thought of the Day (TotD):

Interested to see what the different views are on the Eden story in Genesis and whether you believe that the serpent was Satan, and why/why not...

Me: :no:

CDWolfe,
It is a very bad mistake to look for other people's opinions, this is the reason we have so many differing religions and doctrines. The Bible is written so that we can find answers to all our questions, and is definite and true in its' answers, Gen 40:8, 2Tim 3:16,17.
Satan was definitely the serpent that lied to Eve. Satan actually called God, The Almighty Creator of all things, a lier. Consider Gen 2:17 where God told Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Bad, for in the day he would eat of it he would positively die. Not look at Gen 3:4, where Satan said: You positively will not die!! Satan clled God a lier, because what happened to Adam and Eve, they died, and returne to the dust, for out of it they were made to the dust they returned, Gen 3:19.
Revelation 12:9 lets us know exactly who the serpent was, and is.
We have more insight about satan by what Jesus said about him at John 8:44.
At Isa 14:12-15, we see what most Bible scholars believe is a reference to satan the devil, even though it is mainly speaking about the King of Babylon.
At Eze 28:11-19 is also a place that is considered to be talking about satan, even though the mai reference is to the King of Tyre.
There are other things to remember about satan: Satan is the god of this world, 2Cor 4:3,4. Jesus said that satan is the ruler of this world, John 12:31,14:30, 16:11.Satan is misleading the entire inhabited earth, Rev 12:9, 1John 5:19.
Many people blame God for the conditions on this earth, but it is satan who is the ruler of the world, God is not responsible for these conditions. When Adam and Eve rebelled against God and shower that they wanted to folloe satan instead of God He appointed a time to allow satan to see if he could satisfactorily rule this earth, and bring about good conditions. That time period is almost at an end now. Very soon God will, by Jesus bring an end to thisd whole system of things and start theThousand Year Judgement Day, as mentioned at Rev 19:11-21. Then the rule of Jesus will begin, with his co-rulers with him, Rom 8:17, Rev 20:3-6, 21:1-6. During the Thousand Year Judgement Day cillions of the dead will be brought back to life to live with the ones who live through the Great Tribulation into the Judgement Day, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15, Rev 7:14.

 

[Sleeppy]

"Nobody killed them" - that's the best you can do? God killed them. And you avoided the question, I notice.

Well, I must apologize then, because that isn't good enough for me, looking at things on a rational level.

If one issues a command, where one has deliberately misconstrued meaning, where one keeps dire consequences secret, or where one equivocates and sets the field in a way that smacks of subterfuge, I will observe this to be dishonest. Since God knows everything, then making false statements is identical to lying, for him. And that is what happened, plainly, in the Garden.

When deeds don't match words, you have a dishonest being. Man, or God, it's all one.

Believing that the all knowing God can lie is a result of ignorance, and is itself a lie. Since when did lies have to do with knowledge? Do lies spread knowledge or ignorance?

 

[Thief]

That's not in scripture. Didn't you read the thread? You're assuming that the snake was Satan, the relevant verses in Genesis don't back up your assertion at all.

Hate to return so late....

Serpents that talk?...the target of this discussion?

OBVIOUSLY...we are discussing something of a more spiritual nature.
The serpent is a metaphor and likely to note the character of spirit....
rather than form.

The play of circumstance in Genesis shows Man to be the pivot point between his Creator
and the Advesary seeking to undo God's handiwork.

Not what was that you were saying?

 

[McBell]

Believing that the all knowing God can lie is a result of ignorance, and is itself a lie.

Based on what?

Since when did lies have to do with knowledge? Do lies spread knowledge or ignorance?

yes.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hate to return so late....

Serpents that talk?...the target of this discussion?
Yes.

OBVIOUSLY...we are discussing something of a more spiritual nature.
The serpent is a metaphor and likely to note the character of spirit....
rather than form.
It doesn't state in Genesis that the serpent was a metaphor, you're 'interpreting' that.

The play of circumstance in Genesis shows Man to be the pivot point between his Creator
and the Advesary seeking to undo God's handiwork.
The problem with your theory is that the snake is not referred to as 'Satan', or even the adversary, as you put it...just more interpretation on your part.

Not what was that you were saying?

Huh? You've given nothing but bad metaphorical interpretation, that's your prerogative, however earlier in the thread I gave reasons as to why this is problematic.

 

[McBell]

Huh? You've given nothing but bad metaphorical interpretation, that's your prerogative, however earlier in the thread I gave reasons as to why this is problematic.

You assume he has actually read the thread

 

[Thief]

Huh? You've given nothing but bad metaphorical interpretation, that's your prerogative, however earlier in the thread I gave reasons as to why this is problematic.

Problematic?....no kidding.

Genesis is at once a description and meatphor of Man's beginning.
God as creator.
Man as creation.
The serpent is metaphor to the objection.
It happened...here we are.

Believing in spiritual objection is indeed problematic.
God wants you to live.
The fallen angels want you dead.

 

[Desert Snake]

You assume he has actually read the thread

No, but I was hoping he would.

 

[Sleeppy]

Based on what?


yes.

Itself. Truth cannot lie; only ignorance.. Speech on what isn't known, as if it is, results in a lie. Why speak as if you know? That takes misunderstanding. What understanding is lacking? One to know what you are saying, or to know why ignorance is better not being spread around? Only the ignorant see reason to lie, because of their ignorance. It takes knowledge to know knowledge and spread it. It takes ignorance to have ignorance and spread it. The all knowing God, obviously doesn't meet the requirements to lie - or even want to.

 

[Pegg]

Hate to return so late....

Serpents that talk?...the target of this discussion?

OBVIOUSLY...we are discussing something of a more spiritual nature.
The serpent is a metaphor and likely to note the character of spirit....
rather than form.

not necessarily,

there is another account in the scriptures of a talking donkey. Its in the account about Balam who is being sent by the King of Moab to curse Israel. Jehovah God sends an angel with a sword to stand on the roadway, the donkey sees the angel and refuses to go forward. Balam gets mad at the donkey and begins to beat him...then God causes the donkey to speak. (Numbers 22:26-31)

So if God can cause a donkey to speak, then surely Satan can cause a snake to speak.

 

[CDWolfe]

So if God can cause a donkey to speak, then surely Satan can cause a snake to speak.

This would imply that Satan has the same power as God, which he doesn't.

But once again you are back to calling it a snake. It was a serpent, which does not necessarily mean snake. Don't assume anything.

 

[Pegg]

This would imply that Satan has the same power as God, which he doesn't.

But once again you are back to calling it a snake. It was a serpent, which does not necessarily mean snake. Don't assume anything.

mankind have learned to fly, they can speak to someone on the other side of the world in an instant, they can send images through space....its just a matter of understanding the laws of physics really.

a serpent is a snake ...other scriptures use serpent and snake together, ie:

Exodus 4:2 Then Jehovah said to him: “What is that in your hand?” to which he said: “A rod.”
3 Next he said: “Throw it on the earth.” So he threw it on the earth, and it became a serpent; and Moses began to flee from it.

Exodus 7:9-12 “In case that Phar′aoh speaks to YOU, saying, ‘Produce a miracle for yourselves,’ then you must say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and throw it down before Phar′aoh.’ It will become a big snake.”

 

[McBell]

Itself. Truth cannot lie; only ignorance.. Speech on what isn't known, as if it is, results in a lie. Why speak as if you know? That takes misunderstanding. What understanding is lacking? One to know what you are saying, or to know why ignorance is better not being spread around? Only the ignorant see reason to lie, because of their ignorance. It takes knowledge to know knowledge and spread it. It takes ignorance to have ignorance and spread it. The all knowing God, obviously doesn't meet the requirements to lie - or even want to.

Interesting.
Does this apply to yourself as well?

 

[CDWolfe]

mankind have learned to fly, they can speak to someone on the other side of the world in an instant, they can send images through space....its just a matter of understanding the laws of physics really.

a serpent is a snake ...other scriptures use serpent and snake together, ie:

Exodus 4:2 Then Jehovah said to him: “What is that in your hand?” to which he said: “A rod.”
3 Next he said: “Throw it on the earth.” So he threw it on the earth, and it became a serpent; and Moses began to flee from it.

Exodus 7:9-12 “In case that Phar′aoh speaks to YOU, saying, ‘Produce a miracle for yourselves,’ then you must say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and throw it down before Phar′aoh.’ It will become a big snake.”

First off, reverse your hypothesis: a serpent is a snake ... should be stated as a snake is a type of serpent.

Second, don't take verses out of context and apply them elsewhere to try and prove a point. Once something is out of context, it becomes useless.

Thirdly, quote your source for passages. I prefer the NASB as it is the most literal word for word translation into English for Christians to study by (Jews will disagree but not concerned with them). Don't believe me, look it up and see how many Christian scholars prefer it. I am assuming you use the NWT (which is paraphrased btw, and the translators are unnamed and without credentials).

In the NASB your same Exodus passage states:

[ 9 “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Work a miracle,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’” 10 So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the Lord had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. 11 Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts. 12 For each one threw down his staff and they turned into serpents. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs.]

Not one mention of the word snake. Various interpretations, including your's, ASSUMES it. Never assume anything.

I'll save you some time: www.biblegateway.com

Edit: on a side note, if you take the Bible literally, Exodus 7:11-12 "proves" that magic is real. You can't pick and choose what's literal and what's metaphorical.

 

[McBell]

Never assume anything.

Ah, you mean like you assuming your favourite version is right?

 

[Wayfaring Stranger]

More like assuming a 'friend' will help you move your furniture but only a 'best friend' will help you move a body.

 

[CDWolfe]

Ah, you mean like you assuming your favourite version is right?

I did not say right, I said the most literal word for word according to numerous Christian scholars. You assumed I meant right.

 

[McBell]

I did not say right, I said the most literal word for word according to numerous Christian scholars. You assumed I meant right.

Ah, my bad.
You aren't assuming that your favourite version is right, you are assuming that those "numerous Christian scholars" are right.

My apologies for mixing up your assumptions.


Nice appeal to numbers though.

 

[CDWolfe]

Ah, my bad.
You aren't assuming that your favourite version is right, you are assuming that those "numerous Christian scholars" are right.

My apologies for mixing up your assumptions.


Nice appeal to numbers though.

:no:

Those "numerous Christian scholars" (there were over 20) don't claim to be right either...another assumption. You are confusing "right" with "literal."

 

[McBell]

:no:

Those "numerous Christian scholars" (there were over 20) don't claim to be right either...another assumption. You are confusing "right" with "literal."

now you are moving the goal posts.

i never said, hinted, or even implied that the scholars claimed to be right.

Nice try though.

If you did not assume that those ""numerous Christian scholars" (there were over 20)" were right, then why did you bring them up in the first place?
And then you go out of your way to include the "over 20" part.
As if that somehow further shows that your assumption they are right is correct.=