towards understanding the concept of just of the non Abrahamicreligions

[Me Myself]

don't think that means i'm not convinced by the concept of the eternal hell

But you said no finite action could ause an infinite punishment. Our actions are hardly infinite in the muslim framework of things where they have a "begining" and an "end"

how could Karma achieves the absolute Justice?

I am still not sure what you mean by absolute justice.

Karma makes every soul experience in itself what it released into the world, be it happiness, suffering or anything. In this way the soul learns and becomes more pure, becoming just to other people, and much better than just: It becomes charitable.

Justice is something very poor, by the other hand charitableness is godhood.

 

[Andal]

The idea of justice is not absolute. It is dependent on culture. In one culture stoning an adulteress is the appropriate carrying out of it. In another culture justice means the prosecution and sentencing to jail of the guys who stoned the poor girl. In some cultures the death penalty is acceptable while in others it is absolutely not.

The idea of justice is culturally programmed into us and is not how the universe works. The universe functions on the rule of cause and effect. You do something good or bad it will come back to you. Your thoughts, actions, and words have an impact on the world around you and will create results. Dharmic religions understand this cause and effect as karma (from the sanskrit root- kri, meaning action) The universe functions through balance not a human concept of justice.

Aum Hari Aum!

 

[islam abduallah]

Is it supposed to?

if it's right path to god, it has to achieve it

 

[Me Myself]

if it's right path to god, it has to achieve it

Now, if Justice must be the path to God then hell is unjust, unless you tell me people in hell are close to God.

 

[Riverwolf]

if it's right path to god, it has to achieve it

Why is that?

 

[islam abduallah]

Why is that?

as the god must achieve the justice between his children not to have a favorite play

 

[islam abduallah]

Existence is Attribute of all substances in the Universe. All Attributes are beginning-less and endless. Hence , existence of all substances is beginning-less and endless. Hence , nobody created any Substance.

Since Universe is nothing but sum total of all the Substances , existence of Universe is also beginning-less and endless. Hence , nobody created Universe.

how this universe is beginning less, i think your opinion is against the science

 

[islam abduallah]

What were the mechanics of the universe beginning?

i couldn't understand your question, explain it more

My practices work for me, and the beliefs of my religion match, more or less, with my observations.

if it's working for you that not means that it's right

 

[islam abduallah]

How would you define absolute justice?

it's too long to define it, but simply that the god should be just during giving his graces to all of his creatures, giving the humans a mind by which they could make a civilization while not gave it to the donkeys this is unjust for animals, and also he should give all the mankind the same graces, wealth, natural resources, intelligence, power,.... to be equal

also who breaks the rules of living in peace should be punished the proper punishment, this is simply the absolute just.

in that life i can't see that there is an absolute Just.

 

[islam abduallah]

But you said no finite action could ause an infinite punishment. Our actions are hardly infinite in the muslim framework of things where they have a "begining" and an "end"

let me show you how things work in Islam, we are living mostly for 60 or 70 years which we consider a finite time, and Muslims agree that it's a finite time

what if Allah gives you an infinite number of lives, so you will get an infinite life and then it would be impossible to have the concept of other life, hell, paradise as you are already living infinitely
but indeed the god doesn't need to examine us for an infinite period, how? Allah knows well what we are doing, and he knows very well if the bad people died and they see the hell and ask for another chance and another life to do well in that new life and to do good deeds instead of the bad and to believe in him instead of disbelieving and to obey instead of disobeying, he knows well that they are in a big lie, they are trying to deceive him and if he returns them to the life again as they will do as they did before and they will say if we die again we will ask the god for another life and he's the most merciful and he will do as he did before but Allah isn't naive to act with them in that endless circle, his knowledge allowed him to judge us from our first chance, on the other hand he knows well that the good people if he gave him an infinite life, they will do well as they did at the first and so he rewarded them by an eternal paradise, let's post the verses of the quran which shows that, it's talking better than me


"If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers, But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars, And they say, "There is none but our worldly life, and we will not be resurrected." Quran (6:27-29)

"And say, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from the incitements of the devils, And I seek refuge in You, my Lord , lest they be present with me, [For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back, That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected" (23:97-100)

think deeply about those verses

 

[islam abduallah]

I am still not sure what you mean by absolute justice.

Karma makes every soul experience in itself what it released into the world, be it happiness, suffering or anything. In this way the soul learns and becomes more pure, becoming just to other people, and much better than just: It becomes charitable.

Justice is something very poor, by the other hand charitableness is godhood.

look my dear, gather my questions at posts# 18, 49 and you will understand what i mean by the absolute Justice

 

[islam abduallah]

The idea of justice is not absolute. It is dependent on culture. In one culture stoning an adulteress is the appropriate carrying out of it. In another culture justice means the prosecution and sentencing to jail of the guys who stoned the poor girl. In some cultures the death penalty is acceptable while in others it is absolutely not.

The idea of justice is culturally programmed into us and is not how the universe works. The universe functions on the rule of cause and effect. You do something good or bad it will come back to you. Your thoughts, actions, and words have an impact on the world around you and will create results. Dharmic religions understand this cause and effect as karma (from the sanskrit root- kri, meaning action) The universe functions through balance not a human concept of justice.

Aum Hari Aum!

thank you for your thoughts but i'm talking about the god's absolute justice not how we are working to achieve, our methods to achieve justice are different and not all of it is right, but the god should achieve this justice in his actions towards us

 

[Me Myself]

let me show you how things work in Islam, we are living mostly for 60 or 70 years which we consider a finite time, and Muslims agree that it's a finite time

what if Allah gives you an infinite number of lives, so you will get an infinite life and then it would be impossible to have the concept of other life, hell, paradise as you are already living infinitely
but indeed the god doesn't need to examine us for an infinite period, how? Allah knows well what we are doing, and he knows very well if the bad people died and they see the hell and ask for another chance and another life to do well in that new life and to do good deeds instead of the bad and to believe in him instead of disbelieving and to obey instead of disobeying, he knows well that they are in a big lie, they are trying to deceive him and if he returns them to the life again as they will do as they did before and they will say if we die again we will ask the god for another life and he's the most merciful and he will do as he did before but Allah isn't naive to act with them in that endless circle, his knowledge allowed him to judge us from our first chance, on the other hand he knows well that the good people if he gave him an infinite life, they will do well as they did at the first and so he rewarded them by an eternal paradise, let's post the verses of the quran which shows that, it's talking better than me


"If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers, But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars, And they say, "There is none but our worldly life, and we will not be resurrected." Quran (6:27-29)

"And say, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from the incitements of the devils, And I seek refuge in You, my Lord , lest they be present with me, [For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back, That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected" (23:97-100)

think deeply about those verses

I have seen your definitions of justice.

I think they are too arcaic.

If you have infinite life and this life is infinitely bound to karma, then you will infinetely get what you diserve.

You´ll get the good stuff for as long as you were good and the bad stuff for as long as you were bad. Both reward and punishment are finite, so you can LEARN from both.

To punish infinitely someone who has made a finite evil with finite consecuences is diabolical.

Given enough lifes, any man will repent because we all want to be happy.

Infinite hell has no purpose because it cannot correct anyone because no one is getting out. if it is just punishing for punishing sake, then it is not ustice but evil.

Besides, Justice is for humans, and less knowledgeable ones at that. Forgiveness and compassion is for the divine.

Anyone can kick those who kick you and curse back those who curse you. Nothing majestic about that, kids do it naturally, it is not something that you need to learn.

To love those who kick you and to bless those who curse you. This is how you change people. Because anger cannot be satisfied with anger. Anger can only be beaten with love.

If God send his children to hell, then he failed as a parent and as a creator, because his creation was irredemable. If we are able to completely ignore the divine spark that God left in us, how could we have been made on his image?

If god image has any power, hell can never be eternal for us.

If God is truly wise and truly loving and truly better than us moraly, then he doesn´t strive to be "just". He strives to be better than just because in just there is scarcity.

"there was just enough to eat" "there was just enough to ___" Just is scarcity whereas God is abundance. So no, god is not just, god is far more than that.

 

[Andal]

thank you for your thoughts but i'm talking about the god's absolute justice not how we are working to achieve, our methods to achieve justice are different and not all of it is right, but the god should achieve this justice in his actions towards us

You've missed the point of my post. You wanted a non Abrahamic understanding of justice and this is it from the Dharmic perspective. You are trying to apply your Abrahamic notions (ie: the connection between God and absolute justice) to systems where this simply does not exist. From the Dharmic perspective there is no such thing as absolute justice.

 

[Madhuri]

From the Dharmic perspective there is no such thing as absolute justice.

What do you mean by absolute justice?
I actually think the laws of Karma provide greater justice than the Abrahamic God who only 'saves' you if you believe in him or condemns you for not, even if you are a good person.

 

[Madhuri]

i noticed that non Abrahamic religions followers see the concept of hell and the Judgement are flaws in religions like Islam, Christianity and judhism, so i'd like to understand somthing about the non- Abrahamic religions
i think all of the religions believe that god is the absolute just and fair, so i'm asking if he's like that and there's no other life, why i couldn't see the signs of that just in that life?

Sanatan Dharma shows how throwing someone into hell forever is not justice, it is the most cruel and horrific thing to imagine. Only a sadistic person could be satisfied with such a system of torment and punishment.

Instead, justice is met through karma and reincarnation. Individuals are given a chance to become better in their next life. Suffering through our own mistakes is the only way to learn.

Putting people in hell is to give up on them without hardly giving them a chance to learn. There is nothing good about a God that puts people there, imo.

 

[islam abduallah]

What do you mean by absolute justice?
I actually think the laws of Karma provide greater justice than the Abrahamic God who only 'saves' you if you believe in him or condemns you for not, even if you are a good person.

what do you mean by a good person?

 

[islam abduallah]

Sanatan Dharma shows how throwing someone into hell forever is not justice, it is the most cruel and horrific thing to imagine. Only a sadistic person could be satisfied with such a system of torment and punishment.

isn't that an insult to the Abrahmic followers? is that matched with the forum rules?

Instead, justice is met through karma and reincarnation. Individuals are given a chance to become better in their next life. Suffering through our own mistakes is the only way to learn.

Putting people in hell is to give up on them without hardly giving them a chance to learn. There is nothing good about a God that puts people there, imo.

do you read post #50

 

[islam abduallah]

What do you mean by absolute justice?
I actually think the laws of Karma provide greater justice than the Abrahamic God who only 'saves' you if you believe in him or condemns you for not, even if you are a good person.

if so, could you answer my questions at post# 18, 49

 

[islam abduallah]

You've missed the point of my post. You wanted a non Abrahamic understanding of justice and this is it from the Dharmic perspective. You are trying to apply your Abrahamic notions (ie: the connection between God and absolute justice) to systems where this simply does not exist. From the Dharmic perspective there is no such thing as absolute justice.

thanks for your patience, i think i'll never be Non Abrahamic follower