towards understanding the concept of just of the non Abrahamicreligions

[Me Myself]

i read little about karma, and i have some comments about it,
1- when will be this reborn, i mean is it in the current life, if yes, is that means that my soul was in a former man body and it reborns again in my body

Reborns vary. Generaly takes a couple of years at least but different schools say different stuff I understand.

2- how Karma deal with concept of repenting and giving up sins

After varius lifes the soul eventually learns what it has done wrong and stops doing it. This happens because the soul has suffer the evil of his deeds, so that acts as a attonance you could say. The soul payed the price of it´s wickedness and the impulses to sin decay as one progresses in lifes until eventually it dies out completely and the person is completely pure.

3-what about the poor, they are suffering at this life, and maybe there's no body is the reason of being poor, will they reborn as a rich

I am not sure I understand your question. If they are poor the most likely did stuff in their past lifes to be poor. Other explanation I have heard is that not necesarily they did "bad" karma to be poor, but it was more that the soul felt that it will learn more from poverty than from wealth so it decided to be poor.

You may tell me if that adresses your question

4- what about the victim's right, if you punish the offender in another life what does the victim gain?

Attonement for what the victim did in a past life. If the victim suffered is because the victim diserved it, once s/he already sufferedwhat s/he had made others suffer in past or current life it gains more understanding of why s/he shouldn´t do unto others that which was done into him/her.

 

[nameless]

do you agree with me that the right religion has to answer all the doubts or it won't be a right complete belief?

pls share us the name of that 'right complete religion'?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I'm waiting for the simple phrase to disturb the flow of this debate: "Life isn't fair".

 

[Riverwolf]

as the god must achieve the justice between his children not to have a favorite play

To avoid favoritism? There's clearly none of that in nature. Thing is, I've seen no justice in this world, either, save for what we try to impose.

The thing is, even if this works in theory, I haven't seen it anywhere outside of human influence, so I must conclude that justice is a human construct and not something God enforces.

Then again, I don't see God as a King, nor the world as a kingdom.

 

[Riverwolf]

i couldn't understand your question, explain it more

Let's say God created the world. How did he do it? By simply willing it? How is it that God can create something just by willing it? How did he get that power? How does it work?

if it's working for you that not means that it's right

It means there is no right or wrong. I don't think God would make a one true religion that didn't work for everybody.

 

[Riverwolf]

it's too long to define it, but simply that the god should be just during giving his graces to all of his creatures, giving the humans a mind by which they could make a civilization while not gave it to the donkeys this is unjust for animals, and also he should give all the mankind the same graces, wealth, natural resources, intelligence, power,.... to be equal

also who breaks the rules of living in peace should be punished the proper punishment, this is simply the absolute just.

in that life i can't see that there is an absolute Just.

I don't see that anywhere. My observations have told me that we are not "better" than animals. You earlier said God avoids favoritism with His children; well, all life and all Creations are His children, yet apparently we're better than all other animals in His eyes? That's favoritism.

 

[Riverwolf]

"If you could but see when they are made to stand before the Fire and will say, "Oh, would that we could be returned [to life on earth] and not deny the signs of our Lord and be among the believers, But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars, And they say, "There is none but our worldly life, and we will not be resurrected." Quran (6:27-29)

"And say, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from the incitements of the devils, And I seek refuge in You, my Lord , lest they be present with me, [For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back, That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected" (23:97-100)

think deeply about those verses

It's actually verses like these that prevent me from being a Muslim. I do not believe for one second that these verses speak the Truth. Bad people can, and DO, repent after going through hardships and suffering.

Here's the thing: Hinduism DOES have heaven and hell; they're just not eternal. If you do bad things, not only could you end up in a bad life on earth, you'll also end up in what we call Naraka for a certain period of time. Then, once your soul has been cleansed of its sins by that fire, it comes back here to try again. The soul will remember the torment of Naraka, and will therefore strive to be good. A person who went to paradise will remember the joys of paradise, and wish to return.

 

[YmirGF]

"And say, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from the incitements of the devils, And I seek refuge in You, my Lord , lest they be present with me, [For such is the state of the disbelievers]..."

I'm waiting for the simple phrase to disturb the flow of this debate: "Life isn't fair".

Here ya go, for both of you.
[youtube]xPQvz1EWec0[/youtube]
Hocico - Spirits of crime - YouTube

 

[islam abduallah]

pls share us the name of that 'right complete religion'?

you have to look for it

 

[islam abduallah]

To avoid favoritism? There's clearly none of that in nature. Thing is, I've seen no justice in this world, either, save for what we try to impose.

The thing is, even if this works in theory, I haven't seen it anywhere outside of human influence, so I must conclude that justice is a human construct and not something God enforces.

i agree with you that there's no just in that world, so that we need another life, the only judge, king there is the god who could judge fairly among us

Then again, I don't see God as a King, nor the world as a kingdom.

maybe your point of view is wrong

 

[Photonic]

maybe your point of view is wrong

Maybe yours is.

 

[islam abduallah]

I don't see that anywhere. My observations have told me that we are not "better" than animals. You earlier said God avoids favoritism with His children; well, all life and all Creations are His children, yet apparently we're better than all other animals in His eyes? That's favoritism.

no, that's not favoritism, Muslims believe that Allah had offered this test to all the creatures, but all of hem refuse to be tested except mankind, they accept so that we have the mind to made a civilization and to be the god's successive authority in the earth
so what you could see a favoritism between mankind and other creatures is a result of that offer

read that verse "Indeed, we offered the Trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, and they declined to bear it and feared it; but man [undertook to] bear it. Indeed, he was unjust and ignorant" 33:72

 

[islam abduallah]

Maybe yours is.

you have to prove that before claiming

 

[islam abduallah]

It's actually verses like these that prevent me from being a Muslim. I do not believe for one second that these verses speak the Truth. Bad people can, and DO, repent after going through hardships and suffering.

Allah gave them many chances to repent and regret at that life, i'll give you an example, Mubarak our former president, he spent 30 years as a dictator, working on destroying the egyptian economy, sold our resources to our enemies by the cheapest prices, he was fighting allah for 30 years, now Allah gae him a great chance to repent and to regret and to fix what he broke and to admit by his faults but he's insisting on denying and doing crimes while he's behind the prison, Allah knows well if that man live 1000 time he would do the same

Here's the thing: Hinduism DOES have heaven and hell; they're just not eternal. If you do bad things, not only could you end up in a bad life on earth, you'll also end up in what we call Naraka for a certain period of time. Then, once your soul has been cleansed of its sins by that fire, it comes back here to try again. The soul will remember the torment of Naraka, and will therefore strive to be good. A person who went to paradise will remember the joys of paradise, and wish to return.

well, we begin to be closer now, was my soul in a former body?

 

[Photonic]

you have to prove that before claiming

I submit to you that the Burden of proof does not lie with me, but on the one doing the claiming.

I'm not going to prove your claim that he may be wrong. Submit to me your proof that yours is the correct claim.

 

[nameless]

you have to look for it

did you find any?

 

[islam abduallah]

did you find any?

yes, i think you are able to guess it

 

[Madhuri]

Allah gave them many chances to repent and regret at that life, i'll give you an example, Mubarak our former president, he spent 30 years as a dictator, working on destroying the egyptian economy, sold our resources to our enemies by the cheapest prices, he was fighting allah for 30 years, now Allah gae him a great chance to repent and to regret and to fix what he broke and to admit by his faults but he's insisting on denying and doing crimes while he's behind the prison, Allah knows well if that man live 1000 time he would do the same

Most people change when they go through hardships. We learn from hardship. The most vile person can become the best kind of person with enough learning. One life is so short, so few experiences. Many people do not even live a full life. Some people have a life full of money and enjoyment and are never given a reason to become better.
One life is not a fair system.

 

[islam abduallah]

first thank you for answering my questions

Reborns vary. Generaly takes a couple of years at least but different schools say different stuff I understand.

so, is this life our first one or second? did we reborn before? did anybody allover the earth reborn before?


[/QUOTE] I am not sure I understand your question. If they are poor the most likely did stuff in their past lifes to be poor. Other explanation I have heard is that not necesarily they did "bad" karma to be poor, but it was more that the soul felt that it will learn more from poverty than from wealth so it decided to be poor.

You may tell me if that adresses your question [/QUOTE]

i think you understand my question well, but the people in somailia "for example" didn't remember that, they are asking day and night to be secured from poverty, if they choose that by their own will, they will remember that and they will not ask for saving them from poverty as it would lead them to the paradise, i think this concept is just theory and it has no relation with what we are facing in life.


[/QUOTE]
Attonement for what the victim did in a past life. If the victim suffered is because the victim diserved it, once s/he already sufferedwhat s/he had made others suffer in past or current life it gains more understanding of why s/he shouldn´t do unto others that which was done into him/her.[/QUOTE]

another question why the current criminals didn't learn from their former lives?

 

[nameless]

yes, i think you are able to guess it

i wonder what trouble you have in saying it