Transgender opinions

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, all I know is that one of our priests who works mostly with teens said that among the teens he works with, hatred of one's body is like a fad.

Ya, I wouldn't trust something like that without research to back it. It's actually harmful to dismiss it as a fad because that is dismissing someone's suffering and saying their own personal experiences aren't really valid. Teen girls especially have hated their bodies for a very long time now because of unrealistic expectations and standards of beauty, and in advertising it's starting to catch up to young men.
And then there's the mountains of research that have revealed how absolutely terribly things like Facebook and Twitter are, especially for kids. It doesn't mean it's a fad, it means they are spending hours a day comparing themselves to people who are mostly only putting out the best of what they have going for them and overstating it while they're at it, or getting bombarded by people so nasty and hateful it would be doing us all a favor if they jumped off a cliff headfirst. Yes, it's been this way, but from where I'm standing technology has made the issues of bullying and harassment far worse since I was a kid (I hate to think of how different things may have been if I had to take school bullies home in my pocket).
And of course people are often wrong about whats a fad. Like years ago how everyone asked at various schools had heard of the jelly bracelet game that was a fad concerning parents, except no one knew anyone who was actually playing it (apparently if you ripped the bracelet off someone they got to do something sexual with you, the color of the bracelet determining the act). Being gay was supposed to have been a fad too, except it really wasn't. People getting sucker punched by strangers, that too was a fad, except it turned out it was edited footage and these tended to not be unprovoked sucker punches.

 

[Kathryn]

Ya, I wouldn't trust something like that without research to back it. It's actually harmful to dismiss it as a fad because that is dismissing someone's suffering and saying their own personal experiences aren't really valid. Teen girls especially have hated their bodies for a very long time now because of unrealistic expectations and standards of beauty, and in advertising it's starting to catch up to young men.
And then there's the mountains of research that have revealed how absolutely terribly things like Facebook and Twitter are, especially for kids. It doesn't mean it's a fad, it means they are spending hours a day comparing themselves to people who are mostly only putting out the best of what they have going for them and overstating it while they're at it, or getting bombarded by people so nasty and hateful it would be doing us all a favor if they jumped off a cliff headfirst. Yes, it's been this way, but from where I'm standing technology has made the issues of bullying and harassment far worse since I was a kid (I hate to think of how different things may have been if I had to take school bullies home in my pocket).
And of course people are often wrong about whats a fad. Like years ago how everyone asked at various schools had heard of the jelly bracelet game that was a fad concerning parents, except no one knew anyone who was actually playing it (apparently if you ripped the bracelet off someone they got to do something sexual with you, the color of the bracelet determining the act). Being gay was supposed to have been a fad too, except it really wasn't. People getting sucker punched by strangers, that too was a fad, except it turned out it was edited footage and these tended to not be unprovoked sucker punches.

He's not dismissing it as a fad. He's actually saying basically what you're saying. He thinks the current scenario with FB and Twitter and all that is horrible for teens especially. Heck I think it's all awful for just about everyone but that's just me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

He's not dismissing it as a fad. He's actually saying basically what you're saying. He thinks the current scenario with FB and Twitter and all that is horrible for teens especially. Heck I think it's all awful for just about everyone but that's just me.

Then where did the previous statement of "hatred of one's body is like a fad" come from?

 

[Kathryn]

Then where did the previous statement of "hatred of one's body is like a fad" come from?

Probably me, but who knows? He said it was like a fad but he wasn't dismissing it as a fad. He was saying it is worse than ever.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
Teachers don't get any say in medical decisions for students, period.

If a student comes out to a teacher, it's just for emotional support or wanting to use a different set of pronouns. There's no adverse outcome for respecting the child's confidentiality here.

Yes there can be if the parents are not respected enough to tell them. It is deeply emotional issue that the parents and their physicians need to address with the child.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

If a transgender child fears telling their parents, don't you think they at least deserve some counselling to discover why? Once the reason is discovered, then they can go from there, according to the findings.

Not without the parents knowing what is going on. If my kids are in counselling in school for any reason I damn well better be told about it.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

no they want the adults in the school to be able to look at each kid as an individual and with them discuss if, when and how to tell their parents.

Basically what is being said is that the government needs to be hands off in this area.

teachers and admins don't have any say in medical and mental decisions, that is the point

But the parents do. If a kid is having issues with this issue then the parents need to be told so the can decide what the right course of action is. Not the teachers.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

It isn't up for laymen to decide what medical procedures are harmful.

I agree, that is why the parents should be told so they can get medical help for the child.

And no the second. If the child isn't communicating to the parents there is a reason and this creates a safetu concern.

No safety concern unless there is evidence of that. Just because the parents may be against their different pronoun use does not mean they are dangerous or there is a safety concern.

 

[icehorse]

The obvious question that your line of questioning leads me to - do you not accept that transgender children exist?

Gender dysphoria exists, full stop.

I cannot answer your question yet, because no one has defined what the term means. What I think is true is that some kids with GD turn out to be trans, but that most grow out of their GD naturally as they go thru puberty. As far as I know, no therapists are able to accurately predict which kids will go which route..

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I agree, that is why the parents should be told so they can get medical help for the child.

Unfortunately we know that will not always be the case. If a child has not told the parents we must evaluate this on a per-case basis because there is a reason the child has not told their parents. Yes, sometimes what is feared doesn't happen but sometimes the child faces abuse over it. It's no different than with homosexuals. It is the right of the child--and no one else's--to come out. It's not up to anyone else to tell. It happens at work and it's called harassment. Children should not be exempt from legal protections and rights due to the whims and wants of a parent when the safety and well-being of the child is in question. And all to often for LGBT youth it is in question, and a child coming out to people at school but not their parents at home is an automatic red flag to wonder why. No, it's not evidence of abuse but it's definitely a situation to monitor.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I dunno but she definitely dresses and trys hard to appear as a male in almost every way. Having her breasts cut off certainly seems she is going in that direction.

How do you not know?
**edit**
On second thought, I think I do know.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Unfortunately we know that will not always be the case. If a child has not told the parents we must evaluate this on a per-case basis because there is a reason the child has not told their parents. Yes, sometimes what is feared doesn't happen but sometimes the child faces abuse over it. It's no different than with homosexuals. It is the right of the child--and no one else's--to come out. It's not up to anyone else to tell. It happens at work and it's called harassment. Children should not be exempt from legal protections and rights due to the whims and wants of a parent when the safety and well-being of the child is in question. And all to often for LGBT youth it is in question, and a child coming out to people at school but not their parents at home is an automatic red flag to wonder why. No, it's not evidence of abuse but it's definitely a situation to monitor.

The problem when you let the teacher or administrator make this call is the will of the parents on how to treat the kid is thwarted. I have a 13 year old son. Let's say he is in a public school and tells a teacher or counselor he thinks he is a girl and says don't tell my parents and they go with his new pronouns he wants and never tells us. (This has happened to other parents). If my wife and I are told we can get the right care for him to address the feelings or mental issues. We would love and support him and get him the help we feel is right not what the school thinks is right. Why does a teacher or administrator get to make that call instead of me and my wife?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why does a teacher or administrator get to make that call instead of me and my wife?

Because teachers and administrators are mandatory reporters and already have moral and legal obligations to consider, and because you just apparently are not reading what I am typing.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Because teachers and administrators are mandatory reporters and already have moral and legal obligations to consider, and because you just apparently are not reading what I am typing.

No, I am reading it. Does a child telling a teacher to not tell their parents about their feelings automatically indicate abuse by the parents?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I am conflicted on this issue. I've read about Trans folks who regret getting the surgery because of all the complications they've had.

Y also read stories about folks
Who got their change under 18 because their parents decided for them.i think they should be allowed to reach their 18th bday first
So on the one hand I feel negative about this operation.On the other hand
H

It's a decision that should be made by medical professionals and the families involved. There are people with cancer who regret having chemo therapy, but that doesn't mean we should ban people from getting chemo.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why doesn't anyone listen to the transgender "influencers" on social media, who are out there telling their stories, being honest about what's happened to them and how they've felt about it and handled it. I've listened to several now -- I've heard about the difference between a metoidioplasty and phalloplasty (bottom surgeries), and how folks have made the choice -- and lived with the consequences.

I don't know how it feels to be transgender -- but I'm listening to people who ARE transgendere, and I'm trying to learn. Why can't the members who feel so strongly about this do that, too? Ask the people most involved, most impacted! They have voices -- aren't they worth listening to? (Hint -- just go to You Tube and search "bottom surgery." You'll find lots of real people telling their own stories. I suggest Jammidodger as a good place to start. He's English, but they're still mostly human.)

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Why doesn't anyone listen to the transgender "influencers" on social media, who are out there telling their stories, being honest about what's happened to them and how they've felt about it and handled it. I've listened to several now -- I've heard about the difference between a metoidioplasty and phalloplasty (bottom surgeries), and how folks have made the choice -- and lived with the consequences.

I don't know how it feels to be transgender -- but I'm listening to people who ARE transgendere, and I'm trying to learn. Why can't the members who feel so strongly about this do that, too? Ask the people most involved, most impacted! They have voices -- aren't they worth listening to? (Hint -- just go to You Tube and search "bottom surgery." You'll find lots of real people telling their own stories. I suggest Jammidodger as a good place to start. He's English, but they're still mostly human.)

Why do you think we are not? Are you listening to stories of regret as well?

I am ok with adults doing whatever they want to themselves or change gender, whatever that means to them. Children are different, they cannot make that decision themselves. I have listened to transgender people and that has not changed my mind or my thoughts on the issue. Can you accept that?

Too many times in this discussion people assume because I am against transgender treatment for children, I am against it for adults as well. If we want to have discussions on this issue we need to stop calling each other names and listen to each other. I don't hate transgender people I just think there are two genders and you cannot change that about yourself. Is that so controversial that we cannot have a conversation about it?

 

[crossfire]

Not without the parents knowing what is going on. If my kids are in counselling in school for any reason I damn well better be told about it.

Like this: "We are counseling your child regarding their being too afraid to talk you?"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, I am reading it. Does a child telling a teacher to not tell their parents about their feelings automatically indicate abuse by the parents?

I already answered that so no you aren't reading.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Why do you think we are not? Are you listening to stories of regret as well?

I am ok with adults doing whatever they want to themselves or change gender, whatever that means to them. Children are different, they cannot make that decision themselves. I have listened to transgender people and that has not changed my mind or my thoughts on the issue. Can you accept that?

Too many times in this discussion people assume because I am against transgender treatment for children, I am against it for adults as well. If we want to have discussions on this issue we need to stop calling each other names and listen to each other. I don't hate transgender people I just think there are two genders and you cannot change that about yourself. Is that so controversial that we cannot have a conversation about it?

Clizby, can you point me to those stories of regret? I am not finding them. Seriously, I will listen, I promise. I am genuinely trying to learn. Remember what I said -- I'm a cis-man (just happen to be gay), and I cannot intuit the feelings that a trans person has.