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Transphobia

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Recognize my adjectives, and address me according to them.
You weren't asked for your adjectives. You were asked for your pronouns.
For not knowing what a pronoun is.
Address me the same way you address anybody else! You or your; those are the only adjectives you use when taking to someone. He, she, Xe, Ci; those may be used when talking about someone else, but if you are talking to me, you only use the pronouns you or your
Did you not ever stop to think that the reason the person was asking was 1) to be polite and respectful and 2) to find out how others should address you in the third person?

I watch a YouTube channel where they run a live chat during the stream. So when callers call in, they are asked for their pronouns. Why? Not because the host is some woke dude, but because they want to be respectful to their callers and they want to know how those callers would like to be addressed when they are spoken about in the live chat. Some people get all bent out of shape, like yourself and refuse to give their pronouns, or even more stupidly they say they don't use pronouns and then proceed to refer to people as "they." It's almost comical.

Were you upset when she asked you what your name was as well, so people would know how to address you?
I never said it was rude.

Why do you say my response was flippant?
Because it didn't answer her question. Because you were obviously trying to be cute and make some sort of commentary instead of just answering her question that she was probably told to ask everybody.
As I said before, “you” or your; same as when you speak with anybody else.
See above. And I know other posters have already addressed this with "you."
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Its is/has been all in the news about transgender females wanting to be in female sports and wanting to use female bathrooms. They take and make it public by pushing for those things.
Yes, I'm aware. Do you care to address what I said about it?
Aerosmith wrote this song 36 years ago for today's world lol


Love this song.

My mother-in-law is a lady that looks like a dude if you glimpse her from behind. Someone may even try to kick her out of a woman's washroom, in this political climate. Or maybe ask her what genitals she has.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I think the main problem is in locker room facilities; like gyms, or public swimming pools. There, to have lady parts in the mens locker room, will cause you to stand out.
Every locker room, gym or public swimming pool I've ever been in had changing stalls with doors on them.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Yes, I'm aware. Do you care to address what I said about it?

Love this song.

My mother-in-law is a lady that looks like a dude if you glimpse her from behind. Someone may even try to kick her out of a woman's washroom, in this political climate. Or maybe ask her what genitals she has.

You many have been setting by many like that. The thing is they didn't go public with it fighting/saying they wanted to use that restroom.
 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My point is that transphobia is not as absolute as your comments consistently imply, rather that whether something is transphobic can be subjective and requires context.
My point is that we have enough context to recognize an aversion to LGBTQ as soon as somebody objects to others wanting to be treated with respect and balks at it for no other apparent reason than intolerance. Describing such reactions in terms of not wanting something shoved down one's throat or something analogous is smoking gun evidence of that. Calling drag queens and children's books acknowledging LGBTQ dangerous and pornographic is evidence of the same.

Why are you and others arguing this point? Are you hoping to change minds? Maybe you know that's not going to happen, in which case you must have another purpose. Is it to convince yourself that you're being kind and loving? Is it to support other transphobics, by which I mean all who have the same dysphoric response of resistance to these societal changes?

I've explained to you that I share some of the same misgivings as transphobics. I've been to drag shows and felt uncomfortable. But that's also how I feel in churches, and I conceal my reaction out of respect. I was recently at a wedding officiated by a Baptist minister at his church, and he took the opportunity to preach to all of who never come into his or any other church for any other reason. My reaction to almost all of it that involved Jesus and God was aversion - cringing, actually - but I (hope I) never revealed that. Never did I roll my eyes or laugh out loud as I would were I watching it at home on CCTV.

I'm reminded of the movie My Little Chickadee, in which Mae West has approached the bench in a courtroom trial, and the judge asks her (paraphrased), 'Ms. West. Are you trying to show contempt for this court?' to which she replies, "No, your honor, I'm doing my damnedest to conceal it."

How about you? Can you do that for these people, who have feelings, hopes, and dreams, and just trying to find happiness in a world largely hostile to their existence like I did for the pastor and the believers in attendance at that wedding? Some are reading your words on this thread. You make their lives worse while humanists labor to make them better.
The reason your politeness argument doesn’t work is because they don’t just want you to just pretend out of politeness, they want you to believe they are who they say they are.
It's your argument that doesn't work, assuming that by "believe they are who they say they are" means believe that their chromosomes are what they are rather than that they feel comfortable living as they do. If your purpose is to explain why you won't be polite without appearing impolite or intolerant, saying that it's not enough when you are polite doesn't help you, because it's not credible.

When are you in conversation with such people that they aren't satisfied when you are polite, and insist on you doing more? On RF? I'll bet that no example of that is available, and if that's correct, what does it say about your choice to make that comment? Spoiler: an aversion to transsexuals, a desire to demean and diminish them just a little bit more before the day is done.

No trans person has ever required that I believe anything about them physically or even psychologically. Apparently, none have considered me impolite, or if any did, none commented on it. Why? I express no aversion to that choice. In fact, I express acceptance and support. Those labeled transphobics, not so much.

Look - you have two choices, and neither is convincing those with humanist values that you are not transphobic given your expressed opinions. You can continue fight this fight, and in so doing, reveal what others will call transphobia, which may be what you think your god wants you to do, or you can keep your objections to yourself and, like Miss West, attempt to conceal your contempt.
If you aren’t Christian, why would you ask me to say hi to a God you don’t believe in?
Maybe because *you're* a Christian. She might also ask you to say a prayer to your god for her even while believing that was pointless. Or, to cross your fingers or knock on wood for her thinking the same.

Or maybe she was being a little snarky. That's OK, too.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
"There is a biological phenomenon called sex, but I noticed there are also social and societal aspects attached to this concept that are not dependent on biology. Gee, I sure wish we had a word to distinguish between biological sex and the social concepts that we tend to associate with it but are unrelated to biology. Oh, it appears that there is this word called "gender" which is used for linguistic difference between "masculine" and "feminine" words. What if we use the word gender to refer to the aforementioned sociological distinction? That seems like a good idea."

Thus, a distinction is made.
So according to you, the distinction has already existed; and is not something that happened in the mid 20th century as the article suggested? Also just to be clear; these societal and societal aspects you speak of are nothing more than stereotypes we attach to biological men and women based on typical behaviors; right? What about the effeminate man or the masculine woman who don’t fit neatly into the stereotypes society has determined they are supposed to fit into? What about the woman who prefers jeans and timberlands over skirts and hills? Who prefers working on cars rather than knitting? Prefers a job as a welder rather than secretary? Are you gonna refer to this woman as he/him simply because her preferences don’t align with stereotypical gender roles assigned to women? Or are you gonna realize that because she is a biological female, you call her she/her regardless of her life choices.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Here is the trick. It is perception psychology in part.
Imagine you are looking at a woman and you know her sex. But she is dressed as a male and act as a male in her manners. You will know that she doesn't act like a typical woman, but that is gender, not sex.
How her sex is, is not the same as how she acts as a gender. That is all. But if you don't reflect on that, you don't notice that you are comparing her biological sex with her behavior.
Hence sex is not gender. Sex is how she looks naked in the end. Her behavior is not how she looks physically, it is how she behaves.
So according to you, am I supposed to refer to this woman as he/him because her behavior does not fit my stereotype of how a woman is supposed to behave?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So according to you, am I supposed to refer to this woman as he/him because her behavior does not fit my stereotype of how a woman is supposed to behave?

No, you should just understand that sex and gender are not the same. Physical sex is not the same as behavior. That is all. The morality of that is something else.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Every locker room, gym or public swimming pool I've ever been in had changing stalls with doors on them.
Every locker room, gym or public swimming pool I've ever been to had showers so small that anyone in excess of 6' tall and weighing in excess of 200 lbs will be too big to dry off in the shower with the door closed so they will have to step outside the shower in order to dry off.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
No, you should just understand that sex and gender are not the same. Physical sex is not the same as behavior. That is all. The morality of that is something else.
This discussion is not about whether gender and sex are the same, but if he/him and she/her are biological references as well as gender references. In the scenario you presented, you said her sex was different than her gender. Are you saying due to her gender she should be referred to as he/him?
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
It's your argument that doesn't work, assuming that by "believe they are who they say they are" means believe that their chromosomes are what they are rather than that they feel comfortable living as they do. If your purpose is to explain why you won't be polite without appearing impolite or intolerant, saying that it's not enough when you are polite doesn't help you, because it's not credible.
I never suggested I would not be polite, I only suggested I won’t believe they are who they say they are.
When are you in conversation with such people that they aren't satisfied when you are polite, and insist on you doing more? On RF? I'll bet that no example of that is available, and if that's correct, what does it say about your choice to make that comment?
I never said anything about making a comment, I said I don’t believe what they say they are. Belief does not require comment unless they ask.
No trans person has ever required that I believe anything about them physically or even psychologically. Apparently, none have considered me impolite, or if any did, none commented on it. Why? I express no aversion to that choice. In fact, I express acceptance and support. Those labeled transphobics, not so much.
So what do those called “transphobes” do? Do you really think they go around pointing out transgender people and telling everybody they are not what they pretend to be?
Look - you have two choices, and neither is convincing those with humanist values that you are not transphobic given your expressed opinions. You can continue fight this fight,
What fight are you under the impression I’m involved in?
and in so doing, reveal what others will call transphobia, which may be what you think your god wants you to do,
Wow! So I’ve got a god now? Well…. at least you’re being consistent!
or you can keep your objections to yourself and, like Miss West, attempt to conceal your contempt.
What did I say to give you the impression whatever objections or disagreements I might have that I go around telling everybody about them?
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
My point is that we have enough context to recognize an aversion to LGBTQ as soon as somebody objects to others wanting to be treated with respect and balks at it for no other apparent reason than intolerance. Describing such reactions in terms of not wanting something shoved down one's throat or something analogous is smoking gun evidence of that.
Except you're again avoiding context and nuance. Not every objection stems from intolerance and denouncing positions you don't agree with as simply prejudicial is itself intolerance.

Calling drag queens and children's books acknowledging LGBTQ dangerous and pornographic is evidence of the same.
Not necessarily true. If someone claims all events are dangerous and pornographic, that would be intolerance. However, to deny or pretend there are no bad actors and never any dangerous and pornographic occurrences is, at the very least, myopic, and discreditable at worst. There are various inappropriate and dangerous situations, e.g. drag queens at events found to be registered sex offenders and cases of indecent exposure.

Extremists on either side of the argument don't do their respective sides any favors by pretending things are only ever as they claim.

Why are you and others arguing this point? Are you hoping to change minds? Maybe you know that's not going to happen, in which case you must have another purpose. Is it to convince yourself that you're being kind and loving? Is it to support other transphobics, by which I mean all who have the same dysphoric response of resistance to these societal changes?

The fact is that regardless of whatever rights are being discussed, a community does more harm than good to itself by not admitting when there are problems and by not addressing those problems head-on before being called out about them by detractors. And it bears repeating: Not being in 100% agreement doesn't equate to bigotry; not all criticism stems from fear and hate. Stable persons can accept and handle that, and doing so is necessary to have purposeful discussions. Digging one's heels in and insisting the other guy is wrong only undermines a cause.

No community is without its bad actors and those are the ones who gain the most attention, what stands out to the rest of society. And contrary to popular fallacy, it's resulted in more than a battle between right-wing conservatives and far-left liberals. Most Americans are socially liberal. Among these are many who are inclined to support the rights of various groups. I.e., a source of allies. And when groups have extremist activists who go unchecked within the community, pretend the community is saintly and is never wrong, never at fault ever, that's when those inclined to be supportive hesitate. The bottom line is: bs is bs and it doesn't matter which side of an issue is slinging it. Socially liberal persons don't accept the hyperbole that comes from either side of a debate.

I've explained to you that I share some of the same misgivings as transphobics. I've been to drag shows and felt uncomfortable. But that's also how I feel in churches, and I conceal my reaction out of respect. I was recently at a wedding officiated by a Baptist minister at his church, and he took the opportunity to preach to all of who never come into his or any other church for any other reason. My reaction to almost all of it that involved Jesus and God was aversion - cringing, actually - but I (hope I) never revealed that. Never did I roll my eyes or laugh out loud as I would were I watching it at home on CCTV.

That's your choice. However, again, you're missing context and nuance. There's a difference between someone just generally being uncomfortable with a church sermon or with the idea of drag queens versus someone made uncomfortable because of inappropriate behavior. Like preaching and advancing an agenda when it's a wedding; like exposing one's self during a children's event.

I'm reminded of the movie My Little Chickadee, in which Mae West has approached the bench in a courtroom trial, and the judge asks her (paraphrased), 'Ms. West. Are you trying to show contempt for this court?' to which she replies, "No, your honor, I'm doing my damnedest to conceal it."

How about you? Can you do that for these people, who have feelings, hopes, and dreams, and just trying to find happiness in a world largely hostile to their existence like I did for the pastor and the believers in attendance at that wedding? Some are reading your words on this thread.

You need to get out of whatever echo chamber you're in as, again, you're showing a total lack of comprehension and context.
You make their lives worse while humanists labor to make them better.
The person doing damage is yourself and others with your mentality. You don't know a thing about me. Nothing. If you did, you would realize how off-base your comments truly are.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
My point is that we have enough context to recognize an aversion to LGBTQ as soon as somebody objects to others wanting to be treated with respect and balks at it for no other apparent reason than intolerance.
What about if the "L" has a problem with the "T"? I know a lady who is lesbian who takes issue with Transgender; especially when it comes to trans women competing against biological women in sports. Does she have an aversion to LGBTQ even though she is a part of the group? How does that work?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Really? Name a word that includes "phobia" that was used 100 years ago to discribe disdain, the same way it is used today.
So to sum up:

- you acknowledge how the word is used.
- you're upset that language changes over time.

Right?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
This discussion is not about whether gender and sex are the same, but if he/him and she/her are biological references as well as gender references. In the scenario you presented, you said her sex was different than her gender. Are you saying due to her gender she should be referred to as he/him?

I am not touching the morality of that one with you. I made one and one point only.
There can be a distinction, which can be acted upon as automated or with metacognition.
And I didn't say what gender she was. I said, she presented as a male gender. I didn't say she identified as a male gender.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
So according to you, the distinction has already existed; and is not something that happened in the mid 20th century as the article suggested? Also just to be clear; these societal and societal aspects you speak of are nothing more than stereotypes we attach to biological men and women based on typical behaviors; right? What about the effeminate man or the masculine woman who don’t fit neatly into the stereotypes society has determined they are supposed to fit into? What about the woman who prefers jeans and timberlands over skirts and hills? Who prefers working on cars rather than knitting? Prefers a job as a welder rather than secretary? Are you gonna refer to this woman as he/him simply because her preferences don’t align with stereotypical gender roles assigned to women? Or are you gonna realize that because she is a biological female, you call her she/her regardless of her life choices.
I told you I am not going over this again with you, and your nonsensical questions have nothing to do with anything. I haven't mentioned stereotypes, and if you think about your questions for more than two seconds, you have an answer.

Make an argument. Stop making me go over stuff I already have, and don't ask stupid questions to which the answer is painfully obvious just to avoid admitting that you made a false statement and got caught out.

And admit that you were wrong, already. It's getting childish at this point.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Not necessarily true. If someone claims all events are dangerous and pornographic, that would be intolerance. However, to deny or pretend there are no bad actors and never any dangerous and pornographic occurrences is, at the very least, myopic, and discreditable at worst. There are various inappropriate and dangerous situations, e.g. drag queens at events found to be registered sex offenders and cases of indecent exposure.
See, this argument doesn't really sit well with me, because you can literally use this argument about anything.

For instance, a non-zero number of gay men are paedophiles. That is a thing we can say, quite justifiably

HOWEVER

When people make the argument "Allowing gay men to work with children will make those children vulnerable to paedophiles", would you say that is an accurate statement? I mean, if we agree that a non-zero number of gay men are paedophiles, and we allow gay men to work with children, then it stands to reason that the statement is accurate in the sense that increasing the people who have access to children increases the likelihood of those people being paedophiles. But is that the real, underlying intent and implication of the statement? Because we can literally say the same about any group.

A non-zero number of women are abusive, so exposing children to women makes them more likely to be abused.

A non-zero number of dogs kill children, so exposing children to dogs makes them more likely to be killed.

A non-zero number of trees fall on people, so exposing children to trees makes them more likely to be crushed by one.

We can admit that there may be abusive or negative behaviours within a group, but when we specifically single out a group in that context we are not just making a statement akin to the above, because that statement is functionally meaningless.

It's not an issue of people denying that there ARE "bad actors" among the group, it's the IMPLICATION given by the statement that the group poses a DISTINCT THREAT GREATER THAN THAT OF OTHER GROUPS by an innate quality of who they are that is the issue. Again, the statement "some gay people are paedophiles and therefore allowing gay people to work with children will expose them to paedophiles" is not a novel statement - it's taking a rule that applies to literally all groups and demographics and only SELECTIVELY applying it to one group in order to IMPLY that group poses a unique risk.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that there aren't dangers, or that there aren't instances in which children have been brought to inappropriate drag shows. It's that these instances are not novel to these particular groups, and are often brought up not to highlight individual bad behaviour but to create an impression that ALL BEHAVIOUR within that group poses a risk.

To use your argument, are there some drag queens who are registered sex offenders and some drag shows that are inappropriate for children? Definitely, yes. But the argument isn't whether these things are the case but whether these things are sufficient that "drag shows", as a category, should be called out as uniquely harmful.

This is something that is CONSTANTLY happening with the trans and drag debate.

"Allowing trans people to use gendered bathrooms poses a threat to women."
"Allowing trans women into women's sports will literally be the death of women's sports."
"Drag shows are inappropriate for children."

These claims are made CONSTANTLY and with no regard for nuance, or differentiation or exceptions. They're not made in good faith to raise genuine concerns - they're used to create an impression that trans people and drag queens pose an INNATE threat, as a category. The framing isn't there to encourage real discussion of actual concern, it's scare-mongering.

We can have lots of healthy discussions about how to ensure broadening access to women's spaces doesn't increase risks to women, or about what categorisations or specifications would have to exist within sports to ensure equality within male and female competition if trans people wish to compete, or about whether or not certain drag shows are appropriate or inappropriate for children. These would be productive conversations. And yet, they rarely, if ever, seem to occur, because the people making the above claims very rarely want to talk about them. They only want to bar trans women from bathrooms, or sports, or outlaw drag shows.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
See, this argument doesn't really sit well with me, because you can literally use this argument about anything.

For instance, a non-zero number of gay men are paedophiles. That is a thing we can say, quite justifiably

HOWEVER

When people make the argument "Allowing gay men to work with children will make those children vulnerable to paedophiles", would you say that is an accurate statement? I mean, if we agree that a non-zero number of gay men are paedophiles, and we allow gay men to work with children, then it stands to reason that the statement is accurate in the sense that increasing the people who have access to children increases the likelihood of those people being paedophiles. But is that the real, underlying intent and implication of the statement? Because we can literally say the same about any group.

A non-zero number of women are abusive, so exposing children to women makes them more likely to be abused.

A non-zero number of dogs kill children, so exposing children to dogs makes them more likely to be killed.

A non-zero number of trees fall on people, so exposing children to trees makes them more likely to be crushed by one.

We can admit that there may be abusive or negative behaviours within a group, but when we specifically single out a group in that context we are not just making a statement akin to the above, because that statement is functionally meaningless.

It's not an issue of people denying that there ARE "bad actors" among the group, it's the IMPLICATION given by the statement that the group poses a DISTINCT THREAT GREATER THAN THAT OF OTHER GROUPS by an innate quality of who they are that is the issue. Again, the statement "some gay people are paedophiles and therefore allowing gay people to work with children will expose them to paedophiles" is not a novel statement - it's taking a rule that applies to literally all groups and demographics and only SELECTIVELY applying it to one group in order to IMPLY that group poses a unique risk.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that there aren't dangers, or that there aren't instances in which children have been brought to inappropriate drag shows. It's that these instances are not novel to these particular groups, and are often brought up not to highlight individual bad behaviour but to create an impression that ALL BEHAVIOUR within that group poses a risk.

To use your argument, are there some drag queens who are registered sex offenders and some drag shows that are inappropriate for children? Definitely, yes. But the argument isn't whether these things are the case but whether these things are sufficient that "drag shows", as a category, should be called out as uniquely harmful.

@Callisto
Well, the general rule is that humans are dangerous, therefore no adult should be allowed near children. In effect to protect the children no adults should be allowed near children. So you are dangerous, because you are an adult and we have to keep you away from children.
And that includes parents and other family. And reductio ad absurdum, you are in all likelihood a criminal for breaking the rule and should get life. ;)
 
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