Trinity: True or False?

[JerryMyers]

I believe I am more rational than most people.

Rational would mean your arguments are in accordance with reason or logic - YOU are not even close to being making any sense!! I have debated with so many Trinitarians in many forums but you are the MOST irrational person I have ever come across….and you said you believe you are more rational than most people ??! Well, I will say this - you do have a good sense of humor !!

I believe I said that I would need to do that but I am in no hurry. Gen. 24:7 The LORD, the God of heaven ...
Matt 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
That proves that the Father is God.

See what I mean when I said “you are the MOST irrational person I have ever come across!” ?? NOBODY is saying the Father is not God !!

Your head is so muddled up, Muffled, that you don’t even know what you are discussing here!! We are talking about the man-made doctrine of the trinity, NOT whether the Father is God or not – we all know the Father is God !!

You claim Jesus is also God, now prove it, that is, WITHOUT ‘cherry-picking’ a verse here and a verse there and claim ‘that prove the trinity/Jesus is God’ without even explaining with reason or logic why those verses you ‘cherry-picked’ prove the trinity/Jesus is God – now, that would be irrational, NOT rational.

 

[Muffled]

And what does that have anything to do with what we're talking about?......

I believe God can be well pleased with Himself but never with man because we are all sinners.

 

[Muffled]

Rational would mean your arguments are in accordance with reason or logic - YOU are not even close to being making any sense!! I have debated with so many Trinitarians in many forums but you are the MOST irrational person I have ever come across….and you said you believe you are more rational than most people ??! Well, I will say this - you do have a good sense of humor !!

See what I mean when I said “you are the MOST irrational person I have ever come across!” ?? NOBODY is saying the Father is not God !!

Your head is so muddled up, Muffled, that you don’t even know what you are discussing here!! We are talking about the man-made doctrine of the trinity, NOT whether the Father is God or not – we all know the Father is God !!

You claim Jesus is also God, now prove it, that is, WITHOUT ‘cherry-picking’ a verse here and a verse there and claim ‘that prove the trinity/Jesus is God’ without even explaining with reason or logic why those verses you ‘cherry-picked’ prove the trinity/Jesus is God – now, that would be irrational, NOT rational.

I believe that is what I am.

I believe you can make the statement but can you prove it logically?

I believe that is not possible since I have debated a host of irrational people who could not even come close to my rationality.

I believe at times I try to be humorous. Would you like to know when? Some people seem to miss it.

So how rational is you statement? I never stated that you didn't believe in the Father. All I was pointing out was that a belief in the Trinity starts with a belief in the Father who is a member of the Trinity. Are you going to deny that the theory of the Trinity has the Father in it?

I believe you might talk about that but that would be a false view. I believe the Trinity is God given in the Bible.

I believe all my verses are well conceived in context

Premise: The father is God (You have said so and the Bible says so)
Premise Jesus said He is one with the Father (John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”)
Conclusion: Jesus is God.

 

[TiggerII]

John 17:22. “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen].” - NASB.

Premise: Jesus said his followers are one just as he and the Father are one.
Conclusion: Jesus' true followers are God.

 

[moorea944]

I believe that is what I am.

I believe you can make the statement but can you prove it logically?

I believe that is not possible since I have debated a host of irrational people who could not even come close to my rationality.

I believe at times I try to be humorous. Would you like to know when? Some people seem to miss it.

So how rational is you statement? I never stated that you didn't believe in the Father. All I was pointing out was that a belief in the Trinity starts with a belief in the Father who is a member of the Trinity. Are you going to deny that the theory of the Trinity has the Father in it?

I believe you might talk about that but that would be a false view. I believe the Trinity is God given in the Bible.

I believe all my verses are well conceived in context

Premise: The father is God (You have said so and the Bible says so)
Premise Jesus said He is one with the Father (John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”)
Conclusion: Jesus is God.

I understand that your very passionate to make Jesus God. I can see that. Even if you have to make up stuff.

But...

Jesus had every right to say that he was one with the father. And I and my Father are one. Jesus wants to be one with his Father in everything.

Dont we even say that me and my wife are one. Our family are one? Doesnt mean that I am my wife. It means that we are on the same page. In synce with each other in our ways. We think alike too. Do you think.... maybe... that's what Jesus is saying here? That he understands his father's will and ways?

 

[JerryMyers]

I believe that is what I am.

You mean you believe you are irrational ?? OK, I believe that too.

I believe you can make the statement but can you prove it logically?

Anyone who cherry-picked verses without any explanation and claim ‘this prove this or that’ IS already logical proof that the person IS irrational.

I believe that is not possible since I have debated a host of irrational people who could not even come close to my rationality.

As I said before, you do have a sense of humor !!

I believe at times I try to be humorous. Would you like to know when? Some people seem to miss it.

Nooo, how could anyone miss that ?? The humor is all over your writings !!

So how rational is you statement? I never stated that you didn't believe in the Father. All I was pointing out was that a belief in the Trinity starts with a belief in the Father who is a member of the Trinity.

Are you going to deny that the theory of the Trinity has the Father in it?

Trinity is a theory as you just correctly mentioned, God is not, so how logical and rational is your question??

I believe you might talk about that but that would be a false view. I believe the Trinity is God given in the Bible.

The trinity is God given in the Bible ?? Prove it !!

I believe all my verses are well conceived in context

This is getting better – your punchlines are funnier than Mr. Bean !!

Premise: The father is God (You have said so and the Bible says so)
Premise Jesus said He is one with the Father (John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”)
Conclusion: Jesus is God.

Your conclusion only exposed your lack of logic and rational to fully understand your own scripture.
Consider the time when Jesus prayed to God for his disciples –

.“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and i am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they be one AS WE ARE ONE— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that YOU SENT ME and have loved them even as you have loved me” – John 17:20-23.

Jesus’ words ‘as we are one’ in the above passage is a direct reference to his words in John 10:30 “I and my Father are one”. So, if we were to adopt your logic and rationale, then we have to believe Jesus was praying to God to make all his disciples Gods too because he asked God to make his disciples as one just as he and his Father are one !! And you still believe you are one of the most logical and rational people???! Seriously, are you on drugs ??

 

[Teritos]

Trinity is true, I didn't believe it first, but it's true. Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

 

[Muffled]

John 17:22. “The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them; that they may be one [hen], just as we are one [hen].” - NASB.

Premise: Jesus said his followers are one just as he and the Father are one.
Conclusion: Jesus' true followers are God.

I believe you misquoted Jesus. He did not say that. He said: John 17:11 ....Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one

I believe your conclusion is false because your premise is false.

 

[Muffled]

I understand that your very passionate to make Jesus God. I can see that. Even if you have to make up stuff.

But...

Jesus had every right to say that he was one with the father. And I and my Father are one. Jesus wants to be one with his Father in everything.

Dont we even say that me and my wife are one. Our family are one? Doesnt mean that I am my wife. It means that we are on the same page. In synce with each other in our ways. We think alike too. Do you think.... maybe... that's what Jesus is saying here? That he understands his father's will and ways?

I believe I do not make anything. I am taught by Jesus to believe this and have found a multitude of scriptures confirming it.

I believe you are correct but if someone asks you who you are will you respond that way? That is the context in which Jesus said it.

I believe the context does not support that view.

 

[Muffled]

You mean you believe you are irrational ?? OK, I believe that too.


Anyone who cherry-picked verses without any explanation and claim ‘this prove this or that’ IS already logical proof that the person IS irrational.


As I said before, you do have a sense of humor !!


Nooo, how could anyone miss that ?? The humor is all over your writings !!


Trinity is a theory as you just correctly mentioned, God is not, so how logical and rational is your question??


The trinity is God given in the Bible ?? Prove it !!


This is getting better – your punchlines are funnier than Mr. Bean !!


Your conclusion only exposed your lack of logic and rational to fully understand your own scripture.
Consider the time when Jesus prayed to God for his disciples –

.“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and i am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they be one AS WE ARE ONE— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that YOU SENT ME and have loved them even as you have loved me” – John 17:20-23.

Jesus’ words ‘as we are one’ in the above passage is a direct reference to his words in John 10:30 “I and my Father are one”. So, if we were to adopt your logic and rationale, then we have to believe Jesus was praying to God to make all his disciples Gods too because he asked God to make his disciples as one just as he and his Father are one !! And you still believe you are one of the most logical and rational people???! Seriously, are you on drugs ??

No! I believe I was responding to this: "in accordance with reason or logic" when I said I am.

I believe I do not cherry pick verses. I do not have to explain the logic unless someone asks for it. And that is not proof that I am illogical. I would like to see that one put in a syllogism, lol.

I believe everything is a theory until it is proven.

 

[TiggerII]

I believe you misquoted Jesus. He did not say that. He said: John 17:11 ....Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one

I believe your conclusion is false because your premise is false.

Of course the conclusion is false! It was meant to show you the error in your own conclusion in the post above mine. However, the premise was correct. Try actually reading John 17:22.

The quote I gave is accurate! I even gave the source (as we're supposed to): John 17:22, NASB.

 

[JerryMyers]

No! I believe I was responding to this: "in accordance with reason or logic" when I said I am.

Well, you believe wrong!
You are NOT responding ‘in accordance with reason and logic’, you are responding in accordance with your or other people’s assumptions – a good example was your post #163 where you concluded Jesus is God when he said “I and my Father are one” – so how logical is that when 7 chapters later in John 17:20-23, Jesus prayed to God to make his disciples are one as he and God are one - a direct reference to his words in John 10:30 ! So, was Jesus praying to God to make his disciples Gods too?? So much with you responding "in accordance with reason or logic"!

I believe I do not cherry pick verses. I do not have to explain the logic unless someone asks for it. And that is not proof that I am illogical. I would like to see that one put in a syllogism, lol.

Pretty obvious you cherry-picked verses and that’s why till now you are NOT able to logically support your Trinitarian belief. A good example was your Post #159, where you quoted Matthew 5:16 and concluded with – “That proves that the Father is God” when no one is saying the Father is not God!

OK, since you said you ‘do not have to explain the logic unless someone asks for it', I am now asking you to explain your logic (as in your post #159) of how Gen. 24:7 and Matt. 5:16 proved your Trinitarian belief ?? Let’s see how you put that in a syllogism. LOL

I believe everything is a theory until it is proven.

In which case, even you admitted (consciously or unconsciously) the trinity had never been proven (at least not logically or by the words of Jesus) and that’s why in post #163 you referred to the trinity as ‘the theory of the trinity'.

 

[Muffled]

Of course the conclusion is false! It was meant to show you the error in your own conclusion in the post above mine. However, the premise was correct. Try actually reading John 17:22.

The quote I gave is accurate! I even gave the source (as we're supposed to): John 17:22, NASB.

I believe the operative word "may" is in John 17:22 as well.

 

[Muffled]

Well, you believe wrong!
You are NOT responding ‘in accordance with reason and logic’, you are responding in accordance with your or other people’s assumptions – a good example was your post #163 where you concluded Jesus is God when he said “I and my Father are one” – so how logical is that when 7 chapters later in John 17:20-23, Jesus prayed to God to make his disciples are one as he and God are one - a direct reference to his words in John 10:30 ! So, was Jesus praying to God to make his disciples Gods too?? So much with you responding "in accordance with reason or logic"!


Pretty obvious you cherry-picked verses and that’s why till now you are NOT able to logically support your Trinitarian belief. A good example was your Post #159, where you quoted Matthew 5:16 and concluded with – “That proves that the Father is God” when no one is saying the Father is not God!

OK, since you said you ‘do not have to explain the logic unless someone asks for it', I am now asking you to explain your logic (as in your post #159) of how Gen. 24:7 and Matt. 5:16 proved your Trinitarian belief ?? Let’s see how you put that in a syllogism. LOL


In which case, even you admitted (consciously or unconsciously) the trinity had never been proven (at least not logically or by the words of Jesus) and that’s why in post #163 you referred to the trinity as ‘the theory of the trinity'.

I believe you have no way to ascertain that. However I can categorically state that I respond with logic not with assumptions. I do respond to other people's assumptions which quite often are not logical or fact based.

I believe you are in error I never said there were separate Gods involved. God operates as the only Spirit in Jesus and He operates as a ruling Spirit in believers when they let Him.

I believe it is perfectly logical. What is it that you do not see as logical? You haven't explained your reasoning.

I believe I can agree that the reasoning is a bit weak on this one.
Yahweh is the God of Heaven.
The Father is in Heaven
The Father is Father by dint of being the creator
The creator is Yahweh
Therefore the Father is God and that is the first member of the Trinity.

I like this one better:
John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

I believe that is not so. What I am saying is that which is proven has first been theorized.

 

[JerryMyers]

I believe you have no way to ascertain that. However I can categorically state that I respond with logic not with assumptions. I do respond to other people's assumptions which quite often are not logical or fact based.

I believe it is perfectly logical. What is it that you do not see as logical? You haven't explained your reasoning.

Well, you believe WRONG … AGAIN!

I have already ascertained that in Post #172. You are just delusional – how can you still say you respond with logic??! Here, let me refresh your memory of how I ascertained that you have NOT responded with logic and rationale – ‘a good example was your post #163 where you concluded Jesus is God when he said “I and my Father are one” – so how logical is that when 7 chapters later in John 17:20-23, Jesus prayed to God to make his disciples be one as he and God are one which is a direct reference to his words in John 10:30 ! So, was Jesus praying to God to make his disciples Gods too?? So much with you responding "in accordance with reason or logic"!’

I believe you are in error I never said there were separate Gods involved. God operates as the only Spirit in Jesus and He operates as a ruling Spirit in believers when they let Him.

So?? What has that got to do with your theory of trinity???!
God operates as the only Spirit in ALL prophets and He operates as a ruling Spirit in believers when they let Him – ‘believers’ here is NOT a reference to those who believe Jesus came to die for your sin BUT it’s a reference to those in Jesus’ days who hear and believe in his preaching AND believe in God who sent him – “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life” – John 5:24.

You are NOT going to find a single passage in your WHOLE Bible where Jesus said or even implied that whoever believes he came to die for all man sin has eternal life – go ahead and prove me wrong!

I believe I can agree that the reasoning is a bit weak on this one.
Yahweh is the God of Heaven.
The Father is in Heaven
The Father is Father by dint of being the creator
The creator is Yahweh
Therefore the Father is God and that is the first member of the Trinity.

You are doing just fine here UNTIL you said God is the first member of the trinity. There’s no such thing as the trinity. According to you, the trinity is a theory, which means it’s not a fact. You yourself referred to the trinity as ‘the theory of the trinity when you wrote, “Are you going to deny that the theory of the Trinity has the Father in it?” (see your post #163).

I like this one better:
John 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Do you even understand the context of John 6:27?? Go ahead and enlighten me with your understanding of John 6:27.. this should be interesting.

I believe that is not so. What I am saying is that which is proven has first been theorized.

What exactly do you believe when you have NOT ‘proven’ anything with logic and rationale other than cherry-picked verses here and there and try to tailor-fit those verses into your false belief??

BTW, you have not answered my question in Post #170, so, let put that again here – “OK, since you said you ‘do not have to explain the logic unless someone asks for it', I am now asking you to explain your logic (as in your post #159) of how Gen. 24:7 and Matt. 5:16 proved your Trinitarian belief ??”

 

[Muffled]

Well, you believe WRONG … AGAIN!

I have already ascertained that in Post #172. You are just delusional – how can you still say you respond with logic??! Here, let me refresh your memory of how I ascertained that you have NOT responded with logic and rationale – ‘a good example was your post #163 where you concluded Jesus is God when he said “I and my Father are one” – so how logical is that when 7 chapters later in John 17:20-23, Jesus prayed to God to make his disciples be one as he and God are one which is a direct reference to his words in John 10:30 ! So, was Jesus praying to God to make his disciples Gods too?? So much with you responding "in accordance with reason or logic"!’


So?? What has that got to do with your theory of trinity???!
God operates as the only Spirit in ALL prophets and He operates as a ruling Spirit in believers when they let Him – ‘believers’ here is NOT a reference to those who believe Jesus came to die for your sin BUT it’s a reference to those in Jesus’ days who hear and believe in his preaching AND believe in God who sent him – “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life” – John 5:24.

You are NOT going to find a single passage in your WHOLE Bible where Jesus said or even implied that whoever believes he came to die for all man sin has eternal life – go ahead and prove me wrong!



You are doing just fine here UNTIL you said God is the first member of the trinity. There’s no such thing as the trinity. According to you, the trinity is a theory, which means it’s not a fact. You yourself referred to the trinity as ‘the theory of the trinity when you wrote, “Are you going to deny that the theory of the Trinity has the Father in it?” (see your post #163).


Do you even understand the context of John 6:27?? Go ahead and enlighten me with your understanding of John 6:27.. this should be interesting.


What exactly do you believe when you have NOT ‘proven’ anything with logic and rationale other than cherry-picked verses here and there and try to tailor-fit those verses into your false belief??

BTW, you have not answered my question in Post #170, so, let put that again here – “OK, since you said you ‘do not have to explain the logic unless someone asks for it', I am now asking you to explain your logic (as in your post #159) of how Gen. 24:7 and Matt. 5:16 proved your Trinitarian belief ??”

It is quite logical. God is God no matter where He is. God is God in the Father and God is God in the Son. God is God in believers. This is possible because God is omnipresent.

I believe that is false. God communicates with prophets. He does not operate in them.

I believe the context was the feeding of the 5,000.

I believe in order to have a Trinity there have to be members of the Trinity. I have presented you with the first member. Next I will present the second member, Jesus.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

For those who want lots of scripture that teaches what our Most High God intended us to believe about Him and His Word and His Holy Spirit:

Trinity: True or False?

Not only is it false, but it is directly in opposition to what actuallhy IS taught in the Tanakh:
Hear O Israel, the LORD is God, the LORD is ONE.

 

[metis]

Not only is it false, but it is directly in opposition to what actuallhy IS taught in the Tanakh:
Hear O Israel, the LORD is God, the LORD is ONE.

I Catholicism's definition of "Trinity", it posits one God with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being of the "essence" of God. The philosophical influence of Aristotle especially permeates early Christian writings that were written in Koine Greek.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I Catholicism's definition of "Trinity", it posits one God with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being of the "essence" of God. The philosophical influence of Aristotle especially permeates early Christian writings that were written in Koine Greek.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence

My good friend, you realize that you and I are destined to disagree about thing without relent

 

[Muffled]

I understand that your very passionate to make Jesus God. I can see that. Even if you have to make up stuff.

But...

Jesus had every right to say that he was one with the father. And I and my Father are one. Jesus wants to be one with his Father in everything.

Dont we even say that me and my wife are one. Our family are one? Doesnt mean that I am my wife. It means that we are on the same page. In synce with each other in our ways. We think alike too. Do you think.... maybe... that's what Jesus is saying here? That he understands his father's will and ways?

I believe I and my wife were rarely on the same page. To be one we would always have to be in agreement. The only way to be in agreement is to be the same person.