True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[WonderingWorrier]

Baha'u'llah is not connected to what the Bible says, aside from being the fulfillment of Bible prophecies.

But we were specifically talking about the stars as figs when you disconnected Baha'u'llah from it.

Here:

It does not matter to me if the falling stars in 1833 is the specific event fulfilling the prophecy in Revelation because that does not disprove Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah never claimed that prophecy was referring to Him.

And you disconnected Baha'u'llah from prophecy and the Bible:

Baha'u'llah had no need or desire to talk like Bible prophets. He talked as He chose to talk.

There is no more need for the law of the prophets as recorded in the Bible.
Baha'u'llah revealed new laws which were received from God. He needed nothing from the Bible.

And you didn't explain any Bible words. You evaded the question.

Baha'u'llah explained what many words in the Bible mean in The Kitab-i-Iqan.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán
You can search for those words by using the Search box.

I have already provided some examples of how Baha'u'llah speaks of Bible words from the Bahai library where he doesn't say anything beyond acknowledging certain words were said.

Seems you are also saying Baha'u'llah has no bible prophecy, no bible connection, and no understanding of Bible words.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Is it your theological belief that 95:1 was Muhammed's word? Or is it God's word?

They are not Muhammads words. They are two specific words that share the same position in a 12 position structure of words. Jerusalem.


Jerusalem is a city of truth:
"Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain". Zechariah



Here is the city of truth structure:
"And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there".

Ezekiel 48:31-35


Earlier in this thread I have shown examples of how Bible words fit into this specific twelve gate structure. Every word of God has its place within the Kingdom of God.

Examples:

I can show you Jerusalem, and swords spears and bows. In Ezekiel he speaks of the city with 12 gates. Each gate is assigned a tribe and a direction. With what I have been telling you before I can just add a layer which shows their directions. To show you that I am talking according to Jerusalem.

North - West - East
Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
Spear - Sword - Bow
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

See East is Bow.

Joseph is an East Gate. Ephraim is of the tribe of Joseph. Ephraim has bow.
The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle. Psalm.

Benjamin is also an East Gate. Benjamin has bow.
And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour.

In the above verse Judah does not have bow. Judah has spear. Judah is a North Gate.

Ashur is a West Gate. Ashur is in Oil (The place of Sword)
And of Asher he said, Let Asher be blessed with children; let him be acceptable to his brethren, and let him dip his foot in oil. Deuteronomy.


So I am able to show you the spears, swords, and bows are spoken according to the gate directions of the city.

So it is therefore true the wolf is with the lamb because the Benjamin and Joseph gates are together.

Isaiah also puts leopard with the kid goat, and lion with the calf. Again this is all according to the city.

North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf

The lion is with the calf because Judah is with Reuben in the North gates.

Reuben Cattle:
Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle; Numbers.

Judah Lion:
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. Revelation

Therefore the wolf is with the lamb, and the lion is with the calf. Just like Isaiah said. The city of truth does confirm it.

So I can show Judah and Reuban both have spears. As the lion and the calf both have spears. In the North gates of the city.

North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Spear - Sword - Bow

I showed Asher with Oil (in place of Sword) being a West gate. And I showed Ephraim with Bow being of an East gate. I could also have shown that is the reason why Ephraim is associated with Wine in the Bible. Bow and Wine are both in the East side gates of the city.

North - West - East.
Bread - Oil - Wine
Spear - Sword - Bow

 

[Brian2]

I do not assume that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, I believe that He is. As a belief it cannot be proven, not anymore than your Christian beliefs can be proven.

It can be proven if Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ or not. We do that by looking at the Bible and seeing that, amongst other things, Baha'u'llah was not the same Jesus the disciples saw going up to heaven and that he did not come in the way the disciples saw Jesus go. (Acts 1:9-12)
We can see from the Bible that Baha'u'llah cannot be the Spirit of Truth promised by Jesus.
Baha'is either don't know about or have ignored or denied these and other prophecies about the return of Jesus and the identity of the Spirit of Truth.

The only point that the UHJ article was making was that Sears' interpretation of Micah is not authoritative so it is not binding upon the Baha'is.
Regarding William Sears, the UHJ concludes with "He is free to arrive at his own conclusions as to the meaning of the passages."

You are free also to arrive at your own conclusion. Was Sears correct or does reading the whole passage in Micah 7 show us the Sears was wrong in his interpretation?

Sorry, I could not find any verses that say that Jesus is to return on the Mount of Olives.

Acts 1:1-10 points to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem as the place Jesus will return. (Jesus will return the same way they saw Him ascend. He comes with the clouds and then He went with the clouds. Then it was from the Mount of Olives and so He will probably come back to the same place.)
Zechariah 14:4 also points to the Mount of Olives as the place for Jesus to come down, and this time to rule as Yahweh and to fight for Jerusalem and for His people.

Mt Carmel is definitely the right mountain.

It had been prophesied that when the Messiah came, the desert would blossom as the rose. Isaiah foretold clearly:

"The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." (Isaiah 35:1)

It is in the next verse of this prophecy that Isaiah says that when this happens, Carmel and Sharon shall see the Glory of the Lord.

“It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2)

We have spoken of this before.

Isa 35:1The desert and the parched land will be glad;
the wilderness will rejoice and blossom.
Like the crocus, 2 it will burst into bloom;
it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy.
The glory of Lebanon will be given to it,
the splendor of Carmel and Sharon;
they will see the glory of the Lord,
the splendor of our God.

Carmel and Sharon and Lebanon were renowned for their lush growth. The glory of Lebanon and the splendor of Carmel and Sharon will be given to the desert and parched land and wilderness and they will see the glory of the Lord, the splendor of God.
The glory of the Lord has nothing to do with Baha'u'llah, the glory of the Lord is the splendor of God, it is the lush gardens that will bloom in the wilderness and the wilderness, the desert will be like Lebanon and Carmel and Sharon.
It is NOT saying that Carmel and Sharon will see the glory of the Lord, it is saying that the desert and wilderness will see it and that glory is the plant life that will grow there.

I made a personal visit to that garden on the island of Na'mayn outside the city of Akká. The land is arid, thirsting for water; yet, in the midst of this desert grows a magnificent garden. Laurence Oliphant refers to it in his book on Israel. He says: "This island (garden), which is about two hundred yards long by scarcely a hundred wide, is all laid out in flower-beds and planted with ornamental shrubs and with fruit-trees. Coming upon it suddenly it is like a scene in fairy land." Haifa, or Life in Modern Palestine, Lawrence Oliphant, 1887, pp. 103-104.

In another place, Oliphant says of this garden: "The stream is fringed with weeping willows, and the spot, with its wealth of water, its thick shade, and air fragrant with jasmine and orange blossoms, forms an ideal retreat from the heats of summer. The sights and sounds are all suggestive of languor... The senses are lulled by the sounds of murmuring water, the odours of fragrant plants, the flickering shadows of foliage, or the gorgeous tints of flowers..." Haifa, or Life in Modern Palestine, Lawrence Oliphant,1887, p. 104.

From the sandy plain of Akká, I drove to the rocky side of Mount Carmel. There on the side of this sacred mountain, were lovely gardens, walks and paths of magnificent beauty virtually carved out of the rock. Even while I was flying from Rome en route to the Holy Land, the beauty of this spot was called to my attention. I was given a folder from the British European Airways. On the cover was a picture of the entrance to the gardens of the Bahá'í Faith on Mount Carmel. The folder described it as: "The most beautiful spot in the Middle East."

Baha’i & Bible Prophecy: Isaiah 65:10 & Hosea 2:15 – Valley of Achor, Plain of Sharon

Baha’is believe that Isaiah 65:10 and Hosea 2:15 refer to places in Israel where Baha’is can be found. Bible Verses Misinterpreted by Baha’is First let’s take a look at the …

christianexbahai.wordpress.com

Between the two great Bahá'í gardens that go halfway up the mountainside, runs a broad highway. Through the gates leading from this highway stream pilgrims and visitors from all parts of the world. They come with hearts full of joy and gladness, and the sound of their beautiful chanting can be heard on that mountainside. This, too, was foreseen by Isaiah:

"And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

"And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).

If we read on in Isa 35 we see that God is going to come to save His people. (Isa 35:3,4) This reminds me of Zechariah 14:4 when God comes to save His people.
Then we read on and we see that the deaf will hear, the lame walk, the blind will see and the water will flow in the wilderness and the plants grow. (Isa 35:5-7)
Then we read on and see that there will be a highway but it is not in Akka or going up Mt Carmel, it is going to Zion, Jerusalem, the place where God said He wanted to be for eternity. (Psalm 132:13-14) Mt Zion is not Mt Carmel. The 2 are a long way from each other.

Isaiah had foretold: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." (Isaiah 11:10)

In still another chapter, Isaiah prophesies: "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee." (Isaiah 60:1)

And a few verses later he foresees the following: "The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious." (Isaiah 60:13)

Bahá'u'lláh's name means 'the Glory of the Lord'. The place of his 'rest' had been made glorious, as well as the place where his feet had walked.

From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

Psalm 132:13For the Lord has chosen Zion,
he has desired it for his dwelling, saying,
14 “This is my resting place for ever and ever;

Zion is the place of God's rest.
The highway leads to Zion and from the following verse it seems that the gates of Zion will be left open.
Zion is the place of Yahweh's sanctuary.

Isa 60:11 Your gates will always stand open, they will never be shut, day or night, so that people may bring you the wealth of the nations— their kings led in triumphal procession.
12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish; it will be utterly ruined.
13 “The glory of Lebanon will come to you, the juniper, the fir and the cypress together, to adorn my sanctuary; and I will glorify the place for my feet.
14 The children of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all who despise you will bow down at your feet and will call you the City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 60:20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.
21 Then all your people will be righteous and they will possess the land forever. They are the shoot I have planted, the work of my hands, for the display of my splendor.

This is the picture of the New Jerusalem in Revelation which comes down out of heaven. (see Rev 21) Yahweh is going to be the everlasting light there.

So anyway, nothing to do with Mt Carmel.
I hope you read the link I gave, written by someone who was a Baha'i for 30 years and discovered that the Baha'i use of the Bible was not legitimate and that proper Biblical interpretation pointed away from what Baha'is say that their cherry picked verses mean.

 

[Brian2]

Again, your POV and nothing else. What does he mean to a strong atheist who is a Hindu following the philosophy of non-duality (Advaita)?
I do not believe in God, soul, rebirth, resurrections, heaven, hell, return, end of days, judgment, salvation.
Not believing in all this clap-trap is my salvation.

We all want the truth.

 

[blü 2]

Using this information, I see the position of Truth can state that the last 4 Messengers from God, oldest to newest are Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

What do your Hindu and Buddhist friends have to say about that?

The debate is from those that support and oppose that position. What support do you have that Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not Messengers.

The question requires a definition of 'Messenger' which informs the onlooker exactly what determines whether X is a Messenger or not, no?

I don't know of any such definition. Instead, the test seems to be how good they are at attracting followers ie essentially subjective (or, essentially Hollywood, if you like). It may also depend on those followers having among them people with a gift for organizing.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What to talk of messengers when even the sender is undefined and his existence is un-evidenced and debatable?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

One has to back up any comment with a sound source of knowledge. It need not be Abrahamic Scriptures.

Regards Tony

I believe the universe is God’s “gospel.” Any messenger who focuses on paper and pen is automatically suspect in my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

They are not Muhammads words. They are two specific words that share the same position in a 12 position structure of words. Jerusalem.


Jerusalem is a city of truth:
"Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain". Zechariah



Here is the city of truth structure:
"And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.

It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there".

Ezekiel 48:31-35


Earlier in this thread I have shown examples of how Bible words fit into this specific twelve gate structure. Every word of God has its place within the Kingdom of God.

Examples:

So is it Muhammed's words or God's word's?

 

[CG Didymus]

You are free also to arrive at your own conclusion. Was Sears correct or does reading the whole passage in Micah 7 show us the Sears was wrong in his interpretation?

A just and fair determination? I'd say Bill Sears was wrong. Yet, TB keeps quoting him.

If we read on in Isa 35 we see that God is going to come to save His people. (Isa 35:3,4) This reminds me of Zechariah 14:4 when God comes to save His people.
Then we read on and we see that the deaf will hear, the lame walk, the blind will see and the water will flow in the wilderness and the plants grow. (Isa 35:5-7)
Then we read on and see that there will be a highway but it is not in Akka or going up Mt Carmel, it is going to Zion, Jerusalem, the place where God said He wanted to be for eternity. (Psalm 132:13-14) Mt Zion is not Mt Carmel. The 2 are a long way from each other.

Now from the link about the "Valley of Achor".

As published by Baha’is:​

​

Prophecies specifically regarding “‘Akká” (Achor):​

​

Isaiah 65:10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.​

​

Hosea 2:15 And I will give her her vineyards from thence, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt.​

​

There is no doubt that Baha’is believe these are prophecies proving their religion to be true. I was a Baha’i thirty years and believed this throughout my Baha’i experience. I believed that the Valley of Achor referred to ‘Akká and that the Plain of Sharon must have been where Bahji was. However, all this is inaccurate.​

​

Official Baha’i writings do state that the Valley of Achor is ‘Akká.​

​

Where is the Valley of Achor?​

Baha’is base their misinterpretation of Isaiah 65:10 and Hosea 2:15 on a brief mention of the Valley of Achor, in a letter their “Master,” ‘Abdu’l-Baha, wrote to a woman. It is translated into English and published in Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, #139, page 162:​

​

O handmaid of God! It is recorded in the Torah: And I will give you the valley of Achor for a door of hope. This valley of Achor is the city of ‘Akká, and whoso hath interpreted this otherwise is of those who know not.​

[Note: The Torah consists of the first five books in the Old Testament. The books, Isaiah and Hosea are not among those books. Apparently ‘Abdu’l-Baha was wrong about where to find these verses in the Bible.]​

​

What I know about the Valley of Achor is that it isn’t ‘Akká (Acre) at all. The Valley of Achor may sound similar, but according to the Biblical record, it was a valley south of Jericho.​

​

But I think some Baha'is are aware of this. This is a thread of TB's I found at a Baha'i Forum.... They know that Achor is not Akka, but they still find a way to make it Akka?

tonyfish58​

...One thing that needs to be considered is that at this time it is hard to tie the Valley of Sharron into the Prophecy and the Valley of Achor . Akka is roughly North Nor East of Haifa and Sharon is South. I am not aware at this time if Sharon had any major part in prophecy connected to Mount Carmel. Also most people will see that the Valley of Achor is located about half way between Jerusalem and the northern end of the Dead Sea. It is near Jericho, but very far from Akka.​

​

Duane​

Achor, in Hebrew, means "trouble"; and the Valley of Achor came to symbolize trouble in the Hebrew Bible. Hosea (and Isaiah, who refers to it in 65:10) mention Achor to suggest that in the last times even a "valley of trouble" would become a door of hope. The verse is a clear word play on the meaning of Achor. Bahá'ís, of course, understand the verse to refer to Akka.This conclusion is supported by Abdu'l-Bahá Himself: It is recorded in the Torah: And I will give you the valley of Achor for a door of hope. This valley of Achor is the city of 'Akká, and whoso hath interpreted this otherwise is of those who know not.​

Robert Stockman, "Christianity from a Bahá'í Perspective"​

​

How can anyone argue against the Baha'i Faith? Since their guy is the new prophet from God, and knows best, whatever he, his son or his religions says, that is what is true. Achor is Akka. The mountain of the Lord is Mt. Carmel, not Mt. Zion. The resurrection was spiritual, not physical and whatever else they say, that is what is true. If your beliefs contradict theirs? Then you are wrong and have to change your way of thinking to see the true light... the Baha'i light.

Again I say, for them, there is only one true religion. It is theirs. And maybe so, but maybe not.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am not judging Baha'is, as you know. I am judging the truthfulness of what is taught in Baha'i about who Baha'u'llah is.
The Baha'i faith devalues the Bible and teaches that it is wrong about Jesus and the gospel. The fruit of Baha'i is that it turns people from the truth of the Bible and from Jesus and to the error of a false prophet and false Christ.

With that you did judge the Baha'i and only by yout understanding of the Words of the Book. You did not look at the fruits, which the Bible has explained as the fruits of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

All you have is, "Some day... When the Old World Order collapses, you'll all see. The Baha'i Faith is the truth." Maybe, but what can you show people today? Just claims.

It is already written CG, everything that is happening has already seen by the Baha'i that have studied the Writings. Not in every fine detail, but the overall path that humanity has chosen to walk.

So everyone can also see this, it would just take an honest and just determination of the given Message.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'u'llah speaks of Bible words. But he doesn't say anything beyond certain words are said in the Bible. He doesn't explain the words he is just acknowledging certain words were said.

Some examples:

"The wine of Mine utterance from the chalice of my knowledge" Baha'u'llah

"The great sea of thy knowledge" Baha'u'llah

"Oil of his knowledge". Baha'u'llah

"The sword of utterance, or wisdom, and of understanding" Baha'u'llah

"The dawning sun of his knowledge" Baha'u'llah


Can you notice Baha'u'llah is speaking single bible words in his sentences? He will have to be able to put two or more words together into his sentences to talk like Bible prophets. Otherwise it is clear that there is no law of the prophets in the speech of Baha'u'llah.

So there is a difference between Bible prophets and Baha'u'llah.

Bible verses provide more than a single word/symbol in the sentences. But Baha'u'llah doesn't.

Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment of all those prophecies and words, they are now put into context, each word unfolding in a vision of spiritual understanding.

Example let's explore this passage, what does it say to you?

"The dawn of the Sun of Knowledge"

Spoiler: My Thoughts

There is 3 source words, Dawn, Sun, Knowledge.

We know the Dawn is the rising of the Sun. So what is the Sun of Knowledge? This explains the Spiritual Dawn.

Tye "Sun of Knowledge" is the Annointed One, the Messenger/Manifestations of God. In each age they are the Dawn of the spiritual Sun of Knowledge

So every Word can now be seen in its multipul meanings.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I have already provided some examples of how Baha'u'llah speaks of Bible words from the Bahai library where he doesn't say anything beyond acknowledging certain words were said.

Baha'u'llah explained the meanings of many words that are used in the Bible. I cannot post all of those words on this forum, but below is just one example of how he explained the meaning of two words -- heaven and clouds.

And now, with reference to His words: “And then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” These words signify that in those days men will lament the loss of the Sun of the divine beauty, of the Moon of knowledge, and of the Stars of divine wisdom. Thereupon, they will behold the countenance of the promised One, the adored Beauty, descending from heaven and riding upon the clouds. By this is meant that the divine Beauty will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, 67 and will appear in the form of the human temple. The term “heaven” denoteth loftiness and exaltation, inasmuch as it is the seat of the revelation of those Manifestations of Holiness, the Day-springs of ancient glory. These ancient Beings, though delivered from the womb of their mother, have in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though they be dwelling on this earth, yet their true habitations are the retreats of glory in the realms above. Whilst walking amongst mortals, they soar in the heaven of the divine presence. Without feet they tread the path of the spirit, and without wings they rise unto the exalted heights of divine unity. With every fleeting breath they cover the immensity of space, and at every moment traverse the kingdoms of the visible and the invisible. Upon their thrones is written: “Nothing whatsoever keepeth Him from being occupied with any other thing;” and on their seats is inscribed: “Verily, His ways differ every day.” 27 They are sent forth through the transcendent power of the Ancient of Days, and are raised up by the exalted will of God, the most mighty King. This is what is meant by the words: “coming in the clouds of heaven.”........

By these luminous, these conclusive, and lucid statements, the meaning of “heaven” in the aforementioned verse hath thus been made clear and evident. And now regarding His words, that the Son of man shall “come in the clouds of heaven.” By the term “clouds” is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Even as He hath revealed in the verse already quoted: “As oft as an Apostle cometh unto you with that which your souls desire not, ye swell with pride, accusing some of being impostors and slaying others.” 31 These “clouds” signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current 72 amongst men, the exalting of the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to as “clouds.”

These are the “clouds” that cause the heavens of the knowledge and understanding of all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as He hath revealed: “On that day shall the heaven be cloven by the clouds.” 32 Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the divine Luminary. To this beareth witness that which hath proceeded out of the mouth of the unbelievers as revealed in the sacred Book: “And they have said: ‘What manner of apostle is this? He eateth food, and walketh the streets. Unless an angel be sent down and take part in His warnings, we will not believe.’” 33 Other 73 Prophets, similarly, have been subject to poverty and afflictions, to hunger, and to the ills and chances of this world. As these holy Persons were subject to such needs and wants, the people were, consequently, lost in the wilds of misgivings and doubts, and were afflicted with bewilderment and perplexity. How, they wondered, could such a person be sent down from God, assert His ascendancy over all the peoples and kindreds of the earth, and claim Himself to be the goal of all creation,—even as He hath said: “But for Thee, I would not have created all that are in heaven and on earth,”—and yet be subject to such trivial things? You must undoubtedly have been informed of the tribulations, the poverty, the ills, and the degradation that have befallen every Prophet of God and His companions. You must have heard how the heads of their followers were sent as presents unto different cities, how grievously they were hindered from that whereunto they were commanded. Each and every one of them fell a prey to the hands of the enemies of His Cause, and had to suffer whatsoever they decreed.

It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that 74 intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked,—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth. Such things are as “clouds” that veil the eyes of those whose inner being hath not tasted the Salsabíl of detachment, nor drunk from the Kawthar of the knowledge of God. Such men, when acquainted with these circumstances, become so veiled that without the least question, they pronounce the Manifestation of God an infidel, and sentence Him to death. You must have heard of such things taking place all down the ages, and are now observing them in these days. 75

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 41-80

Seems you are also saying Baha'u'llah has no bible prophecy, no bible connection, and no understanding of Bible words.

Baha'u'llah was the fulfillment of Bible prophecies.
Baha'u'llah has a better understanding of Bible words than anyone else.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But not in Jerusalem? How do Baha'is explain away references to Jerusalem and Mt. Zion? No, what I should ask is... Why do Baha'is explain away any references about the Messiah that mentions Jerusalem or Mt. Zion?

A New Heaven, A New Earth, A New Name, and A New Jerusalem are all promissed CG.

Jerusalem, je-ru'-så-lem (Heb.)-- habitation of peace; dwelling place of peace; possession of peace; foundation of peace; constitution of harmony; vision of peace; abode of prosperity. The capital city of Palestine. In Abraham's time it was called Salem (Gen. 14:18).

In Baha'u'llah's time it Is Mount Carmel, Haifa and Akka area.

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

So is it Muhammed's words or God's word's?

I said:

They are not Muhammads words.

And I said and explained Gods words.

Every word of God has its place

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Example let's explore this passage, what does it say to you?

"The dawn of the Sun of Knowledge"

The dawn of the sun says one thing, and knowledge doesn't say anything.

Which is more of what I was saying before about how Baha'u'llah speaks:
Here:

Baha'u'llah speaks of Bible words. But he doesn't say anything beyond certain words are said in the Bible. He doesn't explain the words he is just acknowledging certain words were said.

Some examples:

"The wine of Mine utterance from the chalice of my knowledge" Baha'u'llah

"The great sea of thy knowledge" Baha'u'llah

"Oil of his knowledge". Baha'u'llah

"The sword of utterance, or wisdom, and of understanding" Baha'u'llah

"The dawning sun of his knowledge" Baha'u'llah


Can you notice Baha'u'llah is speaking single bible words in his sentences? He will have to be able to put two or more words together into his sentences to talk like Bible prophets. Otherwise it is clear that there is no law of the prophets in the speech of Baha'u'llah.

So there is a difference between Bible prophets and Baha'u'llah.

Bible verses provide more than a single word/symbol in the sentences. But Baha'u'llah doesn't.

So how did you get to the sun means the anointed one?

"Sun of Knowledge" is the Annointed One

You did an unexplained jump with that one.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Baha'u'llah was the fulfillment of Bible prophecies.
Baha'u'llah has a better understanding of Bible words than anyone else.

That Bahai cloud explanation is very vague with no clear meaning.

And now regarding His words, that the Son of man shall “come in the clouds of heaven.” By the term “clouds” is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men.

I can show you why the cloud is as a chariot:

The cloud is a chariot:
Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Psalm.

The chariot of Ephraim:
And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.


As a cloud, as a dove:
Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?

Ephraim the dove:
Ephraim also is like a silly dove without heart: they call to Egypt, they go to Assyria. Hosea.


Cloud and arrows:
The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad. Psalm.

Ephraim with bow:
The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle.


In Exodus it talks about being guided by both a cloud, and a fire. And there are chariots of fire.

And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. 2 Kings.


The chariot is both a cloud and a fire in the place of the mountain.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is already written CG, everything that is happening has already seen by the Baha'i that have studied the Writings. Not in every fine detail, but the overall path that humanity has chosen to walk.

So everyone can also see this, it would just take an honest and just determination of the given Message.

Yes and other religions have their interpretations of their Scriptures about the end times. If... the verse that says there will wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end is about the end times, then Baha'i beliefs don't fit.

A New Heaven, A New Earth, A New Name, and A New Jerusalem are all promissed CG.

Jerusalem, je-ru'-så-lem (Heb.)-- habitation of peace; dwelling place of peace; possession of peace; foundation of peace; constitution of harmony; vision of peace; abode of prosperity. The capital city of Palestine. In Abraham's time it was called Salem (Gen. 14:18).

In Baha'u'llah's time it Is Mount Carmel, Haifa and Akka area.

Yes, Baha'is can interpret things to make the Baha'i Faith sound true. So can other people in other religions.

But we're just dealing with the Christian Bible here. Baha'is have to do the same thing with all the other prophecies from all the other religions, and they do. The Baha'is can make any prophecy from any religion and somehow... make it fit.

And it's not that hard when Jerusalem can be made to be Haifa. When the Valley of Achor can become Akka. And when Mt. Zion can become Mt. Carmel. Oh, and Jesus can become Baha'u'llah.

Lots of manipulation and "spiritual", symbolic interpreting going on there.

But now that I've got you here, when are you going to show me how the context of the verses that happen during the Second and Third Woe fit into the things that happened during the time of the Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Rev 11: 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”​

Now this is happening during the second "Woe". But Baha'is claim that the two witnesses are Muhammad and Ali... Which should be during the first Woe, but the first Woe ended back in chapter 9. And shortly after in chapter 11, the second Woe ends and the third Woe begins.

Rev 9:12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.​

​

Rev 11:14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.​

Well, things sound promising for the Baha'is... The next verse says...

Rev 11:15 “The kingdom of the world has become​

the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,​

and he will reign for ever and ever.”​

But then what?

Rev 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.​

Rev 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.​

Rev 12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.​

Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.​

What's that got to do with what happened during Baha'u'llah's life? And chapter 13 doesn't help. It goes into the beasts that Baha'is claim were the Umayyads that took control of Islam several hundred years before Baha'u'llah.

Rev 13:113 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.​

The context does not support the Baha'i claim in any way. The best Baha'is can do is say that Revelation isn't in chronological order. Which... sounds like a pretty weak claim. But... if that's all you got, then what can you do? And I know it is enough to satisfy Baha'is.

 

[ppp]

I decided to put this in the debate section as truth does at times require the clash of differing opinions. (In the right context)

I start the OP with a disclaimer. This is my view based on my understanding of what God has offered Humanity in the religious scriptures. As it is placed in the debate section. I will state this position is that of being founded in the Truth of those scriptures and as such is not able to be proven false (Supported by Scriptures). If you are on the team that want to prove any aspect false. Then it also must be supported by Scriptures, from your source of truth, this is not a debate that is to be supported only by personal views.

I see in Scriptures, that the view there is only one ultimate source of truth which in this OP will be known as God, is fully supported, and that is the purpose for all of humanity to obtain to, the knowledge of the One God.

1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

Everything is from the One God.

Romans 11:36 "All things come from God, through God, and return to God. Praise him for ever! Yes, it is so!"

That is the position of Truth used to establish the Authenticity of the Prophets, Messengers or Manifestations, all these donate the person who is "Annointed" of the One God, also known as "Messiah" in prophecy. (For this OP Messenger will be used)

Isaiah 11:2 "And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord."
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed."

The Annointed Ones, also are supported by one that prepares the way.

Isaiah 40: 1-11 I will.use verse 3

A voice of one calling: “In the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1 supports this for John the Baptist for Jesus, who jesus said was Elijah and Elijah always comes first.

"2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way”, 3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”"

It would then be logical that all Messengers are supported by a person preparing the way, an "Elijah" proclaiming the soon to arrive Messenger.

Malachi 4:5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."

This is not a time of peace as Malachi in verse 6 continues to offer, "He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

At this time all things are made new. A True Messenger will give a New Revelation, they will not piggyback from the last Message and identify as one who is giving the last message in its true form. They will be born into a Faith, but claim a new Message from God and give a New book.

Isaiah 43:19 "See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland."

Revelation 21:5 “And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, ‘Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.’”

There are many considerations, but I will start the OP with but one more consideration, that is the the perdon of the Messenger will be known by their fruit.

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Using this information, I see the position of Truth can state that the last 4 Messengers from God, oldest to newest are Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

In the cause of the Bab, He was also the Elijah for Baha'u'llah.

The debate is from those that support and oppose that position. What support do you have that Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not Messengers.

It is also possible we can broach the truth of any other claimed Messenger.

View attachment 97978

Regards Tony @CG Didymus

"If you meet the Buddha on the path, kill him” is oft attributed to 9th century Chinese Buddhist monk Linji Yixuan. Or is it, Yixuan Linji? I can never remember. In any case, this is not a directive to go around killing religious leaders. It is a warning against attachment to instruction and to authority.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Baha'u'llah explained the meanings of many words that are used in the Bible.

Why do you keep suggesting that I am optimistic in my explanations?

Why is it not acceptable that the cloud is a chariot because they are both words of the same position as I was showing you?

Do I have to show you more verses to further confirm it? I can do that.


There is cloud in the place of the Sun:
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. Ezekiel:

As cloud is also in the place of the mountain:
"And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount".

Same place:

Moon - Star - Sun
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain

Am I not being clear in what I am saying?


Edit:
I am going to show you another verse and bring this back to the word chariot.

As I have already shown you chariots and mountain. I will show you chariots of the Sun

And he took away the horses that the kings of Judah had given to the sun, at the entering in of the house of the Lord, by the chamber of Nathanmelech the chamberlain, which was in the suburbs, and burned the chariots of the sun with fire. 2 Kings.

So you can consider this logic:

There are chariots of the sun, and there are chariots of the mountain.

And the cloud is in the place of the sun, and in the place of the mountain.

Therefore the cloud is as a chariot.

 

[CG Didymus]

So everyone can also see this, it would just take an honest and just determination of the given Message.

Yes, I can see how you get to where you're at. But I can also see how Brian2 gets to what he believes is true. And I can understand how ppp sees things. And Aupmanyav too. Can you?

Or... are you so blinded by your beliefs that you really can't see how and why other people believe differently than you? But no, I think in your mind you do see why they believe as they do... and you believe they are wrong.

Again, for Baha'is, there is no such thing as the "oneness" of religion. The only truth is the Baha'i truth. And it's impossible to argue against the Baha'i Faith when they can change places and meanings of words to anything they want.

The result? What ever the Baha'is say is true. Baha'u'llah is the return of the Christ. He is the return of Krishna, Buddha and everybody else. Woes are prophets. Achor is Akka. Mt. Zion and Jerusalem are Mt. Carmel and Haifa, because that's what Baha'is say and believe. How is that different than the people in any of the other religions that think that their religious beliefs are the only truth?