Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
No. You don't, because you would not accept anything which goes against your 4th Century book.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Optimistic rating is given because I think you are optimistic if you think I care about word positioning in Bible verses.
In other words, I don't care if you think that the cloud is a chariot because they are both words of the same position.
Why would that matter? Nothing in those Bible verses are relevant to anything that is going on in the modern times in which we are now living.
“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.
We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.”
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Please stop making false claims about what Baha'is believe.
No, there is no such thing as the "oneness" of religion and Baha'is do not believe that religions are one.
What we believe is that someday in the future there will be one common Faith because that is what God has ordained.
“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.” (The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91)
Baha'u'llah desired that all religions become one because that is what God desires.
“We desire but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations; yet they deem Us a stirrer up of strife and sedition worthy of bondage and banishment…. That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled—what harm is there in this?…"
(Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. ix)
Baha'is do not believe that the only truth is the Baha'i truth.
It is Christians who believe that the only truth is the Christian truth.
These are not my opinions. They are facts that can easily be supported by Christian and Bahai scriptures.
Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah is the return of the Christ. He is the return of Krishna, Buddha and everybody else. Woes are prophets.
Baha'is do not believe Achor is Akka or that Mt. Zion and Jerusalem are Mt. Carmel and Haifa.
We have a perfect right to believe what we believe. I think you should ask yourself why what we believe bothers you so much. If it is it because you cannot believe these things, why can't you just allow people to have their own beliefs?
I don't see you bothering Christians about what they believe even though you don't share their beliefs. You only bother Baha'is, constantly.
Stop misrepresenting the Baha'i Faith.
The Baha'i Faith does not teach that we have the only truth.
It is Christianity that teaches they have the only truth for all time based upon one verse that Jesus never even spoke.
John 14
5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
Jesus was the Way when that verse was recorded, but time marched on so Jesus is no longer the Way.
And that is what Christians simply cannot accept.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Trailblazer, not just Brain2, but you too do not want truth. "Bahaollah sayeth that God goeth .."
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
The positions they speak of is what matters and is still relevant today. The word positions being the law have never changed.
This is a worldwide law of words. True messengers around the world position their words/symbols into the same single structure.
Messengers can speak of different things like different animals, trees, birds, etc relevant to their part of the world. It is their symbol positioning that makes them have the same message as other messengers.
As i said earlier:
The Zodiac wheel has many different words/symbols assigned to different positions. The positions are the meaning.
If I was not aware of the word positioning speech I would have put the Bible on the library shelf next to Harry Potter.
But I have been optimistic trying to talk to you about it when clearly you don't care.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah did not weigh in on the Bible except to say that it is God's greatest testimony to His creatures. Abdu'l-Baha called it God's Holy Book.
I judge the truthfulness of the Bible based upon my own opinions of what the Bible says.
You are judging the truthfulness of the Bible by what is taught in Christianity, not based on what the Bible says.
I judge the doctrines of Christianity as untrue. I do not judge the teachings of the New Testament as untrue, although I believe that certain verses are untrue.
Why do you keep saying this year after year? Baha'u'llah did not discredit the Bible, he held it in high esteem.
“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?” (The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89)
How many times have we discussed these verses?
Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.
How could Jesus come back to earth and take His disciples to heaven AFTER His disciples were no longer on earth?
John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11)
John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples. It is not Jesus promising anyone else He will return to earth. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again, which I believe it did, in another person who I believe was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)
Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.
Hypothetically speaking, if Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.
John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Jesus meant that His Spirit, the Spirit of God, would come again. He did not mean that His body would come again.Strong's Greek: 1473. ἐγώ (egó) -- I, me
Jesus never promised to return to earth, not once in the New Testament. Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world. That means that the return of Christ has to be another Person.
Your mental gymnastics with the verses you misinterpret so you can hand onto the belief that Jesus is coming back contradict Jesus' plain statements that He was no more in the world.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
No, Christianity and Paul teach that and as such it is a false belief. Good luck with it though.
Jesus is the savior.
God is the creator and judge of humanity and the Lord forever.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This is just a belief that you hold. It is not a fact, yet you act as if it is a fact.
There is no worldwide law of words. It is only a belief you hold.
This word positioning belief is a belief you developed all on your own. If not, tell me where it came from.
Find anyone on this forum who recognizes what you believe is true, just one person.
I don't need to be aware of the word positioning speech to put the Bible on the library shelf next to Harry Potter.
The Bible is an old book that refers to ages that are now past and as such it is no longer needed in this new age.
No, I don't care because I don't believe it determines if a man is a true messenger.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, the prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.
That depends upon which translations you look at.
KJ21
“I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him.
But it does not matter which translation you look at because the meaning is the same.
One like the Son of Man or one like a son of man both mean someone LIKE JESUS, who was the Son of Man.
It does not mean someone who was like a man, the resurrected Jesus in His resurrected body.
Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God when He died and then He ascended to heaven and took on a spiritual body.
Jesus was a Manifestation of God when He died and then He ascended to heaven and took on a spiritual body.
Baha'u'llah never claimed to be the unique, only begotten Son of God.
Bahaullah came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
There is nothing greedy about it. Jesus chose to drop out of the picture after He ascended to heaven. Jesus NEVER said He was going to build a kingdom on earth.
He did not say that all spirits don't go to heaven so that is assumed.
Awaiting resurrection and judgement is just a Christian doctrine that has no basis in truth.
Jesus ascended to heaven where He has a spiritual body and He is sitting (figuratively speaking) at the Right Hand of God.
Baha'u'llah ascended to heaven where He has a spiritual body and He is sitting (figuratively speaking) at the Right Hand of God.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
For that one Baha'i that doesn't know that there is a Baha'i teaching that includes the "oneness" of religion.
The Bahá’í teachings unequivocally proclaim the essential oneness of God and unity of all religions. Bahá’u’lláh explains that the Founders of the world religions, the great universal Educators of humanity, share a common purpose to unite humanity and ensure the advancement of civilization.
AI Overview
The Baháʼí Faith is based on three core beliefs, also known as the "three onenesses":
Bahá’í beliefs address such essential themes as the oneness of God and religion, the oneness of humanity and freedom from prejudice, the inherent nobility of the human being, the progressive revelation of religious truth
The Baha’i teachings bring humanity three primary spiritual principles – the unity of the Creator, the unity of humanity, and the essential unity and harmony of all religions.
In reality, there is only one religion, the religion of God. This one religion is continually evolving, and each particular religious system represents a stage in the evolution of the whole.
YouTube·Asha Lightbearer Music·Aug 24, 2022
The Bahá’í teachings unequivocally proclaim the essential oneness of God and unity of all religions. Bahá’u’lláh explains that the Founders of the world religions, the great universal Educators of humanity, share a common purpose to unite humanity and ensure the advancement of civilization.
AI Overview
The Baháʼí Faith is based on three core beliefs, also known as the "three onenesses":
- The oneness of God
Baháʼís believe in one God who is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-merciful.
- The oneness of religion
Baháʼís believe that all religions teach the same truth, despite their differences. They believe that the founders of the world's religions, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, and Muhammad, were manifestations of God.
- The oneness of humanity
Baháʼís believe that all people are part of one human family, regardless of race, class, culture, or ethnicity. They believe that each person has a role to play in advancing civilization.
Bahá’í beliefs address such essential themes as the oneness of God and religion, the oneness of humanity and freedom from prejudice, the inherent nobility of the human being, the progressive revelation of religious truth
The Baha’i teachings bring humanity three primary spiritual principles – the unity of the Creator, the unity of humanity, and the essential unity and harmony of all religions.
In reality, there is only one religion, the religion of God. This one religion is continually evolving, and each particular religious system represents a stage in the evolution of the whole.
One (Bahá'í Chant) - a group chorus about oneness and unity
YouTube·Asha Lightbearer Music·Aug 24, 2022
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It cannot be proven whether Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ or not. That is a belief, not a fact, so it can never be proven.
That will never work because we all interpret the Bible differently, which is why there was no point arguing about what you said in your post.
You do that by looking at the Bible but I don't need the Bible to know who Baha'u'llah was.
I was a Baha'i for 40 years before I ever read one page of the Bible.
Baha'u'llah did not need to rely upon the Bible to prove who He was.
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Baha'is don't believe the Valley of Achor is Akka? Here is part of what it says in that link...
So, Baha'is... go ahead and name them.
There is no doubt that Baha’is believe these are prophecies proving their religion to be true. I was a Baha’i thirty years and believed this throughout my Baha’i experience. I believed that the Valley of Achor referred to ‘Akká and that the Plain of Sharon must have been where Bahji was. However, all this is inaccurate.
Official Baha’i writings do state that the Valley of Achor is ‘Akká.
Where is the Valley of Achor?
Baha’is base their misinterpretation of Isaiah 65:10 and Hosea 2:15 on a brief mention of the Valley of Achor, in a letter their “Master,” ‘Abdu’l-Baha, wrote to a woman. It is translated into English and published in Selections From the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, #139, page 162:
[Note: The Torah consists of the first five books in the Old Testament. The books, Isaiah and Hosea are not among those books. Apparently ‘Abdu’l-Baha was wrong about where to find these verses in the Bible.]
And if Baha'is don't believe they have the only religious truth for today, then which other religious groups do Baha'is say that they also have the truth from God for today? If Baha'is can't name any, then, essentially, they believe they are the only ones that have God's truth for today.So, Baha'is... go ahead and name them.
Last edited:
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I never claimed that the Bahai Faith does not teach the oneness of religion.
I said that Baha'is do not believe that religions are one, and I meant that they are not one at the present time.
What we believe is that someday in the future there will be one common Faith because that is what God has ordained.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am a Baha'i and I don't believe that Bible prophecies prove that the Baha'i Faith is true, nor do they prove it is false.
The Bible is notoriously inaccurate, certainly not a book that can be relied upon to prove anything.
If Christians want to believe the Bible over the Writings of Baha'u'llah they are welcome to.
I don't need the Bible to know who Baha'u'llah was.
I was a Baha'i for 40 years before I ever read one page of the Bible. Those were better years.
Baha'u'llah did not need to rely upon the Bible to prove who He was and he NEVER said that the Bible was the proof of who He was.
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 104-107
I don't care if Abdu'l-Baha was wrong since I don't believe he is infallible. I'll let some other Baha'i who believes he is infallible respond to this.
I never claimed that other religions have God's truth for today. Other religions have God's truth, but they don't have what we need today.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The New Testament is evidence for Jesus as are the mention of Jesus by historians and the Jews etc.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes they are resistant to the facts as are all people who are devoted to and have life investment in a the false teachings of their particular cult.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I judge the religion to be wrong and the prophet to be a false prophet and a false Christ.
Gal 5:22-23 has nothing to do with that judgement.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Yes there are many words in the Bible that Baha'u'llah needs to change the meaning of so that Baha'is have something to hang onto when they notice that the actual dictionary meaning of those words in the Bible shows that Baha'u'llah cannot be whom he claimed to be.
That is begging the question. It shows the working of your mind and faith, but shows nothing about who Baha'u'llah is.
Actually changing the plain meaning of words in the Bible to try to make the Bible not show that you are a false prophet and false Christ is the work of a deceiver.
But of course even after doing that, the Bible still shows the truth about Baha'u'llah.
Last edited:
Brian2
Veteran Member
Salem was meant to be the city of Jerusalem. There was no change of location when the name was changed.
When God says this in the Psalm, He was not referring to Mt Carmel or Haifa or Akka.
Psalm 132: 13 For the Lord has chosen Zion,
he has desired it for his dwelling, saying,
14 “This is my resting place for ever and ever;
here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.
You speak your faith, the things you have learned from Baha'i that you believe, but being honest about it should mean admitting that the Bible does not teach those things and in fact teaches other things that Baha'is need to deny.
Brian2
Veteran Member
When I look for answers to the thousands of attacks that are made against the bible, I usually find that the Bible is confirmed or at least not shown to be wrong.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Very weak evidence.