True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[TransmutingSoul]

It is just your (to use your words) untrustworthy and untruthful opinion that your opinions are founded on truth.

No matter how you twist these words, I will only Love and treat you fair.

Is there any quality of discussion you would like to add to the OP? What do you see would be a just and honest determination of a person claiming to be a Prophet from God?

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

He is relevant for everyone even if not relevant to a lot of people.

The same applies to Baha'u'llah.

 

[ppp]

No matter how you twist these words, I will only Love and treat you fair.

I don't need to twist your words. Everything you say about your religion, its truth, or is goodness, is your opinion. No more. No less.

As for your of "love", assuming that you are sincere, it is a parasocial love. It only manifests in ways that are meaningful to you. Nothing that is meaningful to me counts.

Is there any quality of discussion you would like to add to the OP? What do you see would be a just and honest determination of a person claiming to be a Prophet from God?

A just and honest determination would necessarily begin by ignoring all claimants, and demonstrating that 1) the god exists

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ, since He was the return of Christ.

The prophecies for the messianic age have not all been fulfilled yet since we are only 172 years into that age, which will last no less that 1000 years.
More of those prophecies will be fulfilled as time goes on.

How can falling stars in 1833 be the specific fulfillment of this prophecy:
"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind". Revelation.

Because it specifically also mentions figs. Can you explain that?

I can explain it.

All Bible prophecies were fulfilled the moment they were spoken.

I can explain why the stars are specifically as figs:

Moon - Star - Sun
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple

They are words that share the same position.




Edit:
I have mentioned Star position before:

With lower places and higher places, we have swords, spears, and bows:
"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah".

Just like we have the sun, moon, and stars:
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. Corinthians

Listen carefully. This not violent nonsense. This combines both of the above into one. It is according to the law:
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk

The sun is as arrows (bow), and the moon is as spear:

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

According to these three verses the sword is as star. Can you understand that?

And I have mentioned Fig position before:

As the Bible speaks of brass pomegranates, and golden apples.

A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver. Proverbs.

"And a chapiter of brass was upon it; and the height of one chapiter was five cubits, with network and pomegranates upon the chapiters round about, all of brass. The second pillar also and the pomegranates were like unto these". Jeremiah

Brass - Silver - Gold
Corn - Oilve - Grape
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple


You can know them by where they put their fruits. Like golden apples.

It can be verified that Star and Fig are same position words:

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Brass - Silver - Gold
Corn - Oilve - Grape
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple

 

[Trailblazer]

How can falling stars in 1833 be the specific fulfillment of this prophecy:
"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind". Revelation.

Because it specifically also mentions figs. Can you explain that?

It says "even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind"
It does not say that figs will be cast unto the earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can explain why the stars are specifically as figs:

Moon - Star - Sun
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple

They are words that share the same position.

Edit:
I have mentioned Star position before:

And I have mentioned Fig position before:

It can be verified that Star and Fig are same position words:

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Brass - Silver - Gold
Corn - Oilve - Grape
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind". Revelation.

Given what you said above, do you conclude that the falling stars in 1833 is the specific fulfillment of this prophecy?

 

[Brian2]

Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ, since He was the return of Christ.

The prophecies for the messianic age have not all been fulfilled yet since we are only 172 years into that age, which will last no less that 1000 years.
More of those prophecies will be fulfilled as time goes on.

It is strange to say that "all" the prophecies have been fulfilled and then to say that they have not all been fulfilled.
Christians say that Jesus is still to fulfil prophecies, but Jesus rose from the dead and so is alive and ascended to heaven and has received an everlasting Kingdom (Daniel 7:13,14) and rules on the throne of David forever. (Luke 1:32-34)
Baha'u'llah died and his body is in the grave and soul is in sheol/hades awaiting the resurrection. (To say otherwise is to replace the Biblical teaching with a foreign Baha'i teaching.)
To say :
Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ, since He was the return of Christ.
is to assume that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, I think that is called begging the question.

Micah 7:12 “In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.”

He shall come from Assyria: At that time Assyria was a large area. Baha’u’llah and His family lived in the part that was Persia, now Iran, in the city of Tihran.

and from the fortified cities: Baha’u’llah was banished from city to city: After being released from the Black Pit dungeon in Tihran in 1852, His family and companions had only a short time before being sent to the fortified city of Baghdad. While living in Baghdad, He gained such a large following that the enemies where shocked. Right away He was banished again, this time to the fortified city of Istanbul.

The Governor of the city refused many times to fulfill the orders that he received to banish Him again. Finally forced to follow orders, Baha’u’llah was banished again to the fortified city of Adrianople. He was honored and praised, and shown respect everywhere, until He was finally sent to the most horrific of all places, the fortress of Akka, where it was expected that He would succumb to the terrible conditions.
and from the fortress even to the river: It was while in Baghdad that the Tigris river became a special place, as Baha’u’llah crossed it to the Ridvan Garden. April 21, 1863 was the fulfilment of prophecy, as that was when Baha’u’llah declared to those around Him His Station as the Manifestation of God.

and from sea to sea: After His banishment in Baghdad, His exile was by way of the Black Sea. Still a prisoner He crossed the Black Sea from Sinope on His way to Constantinople. After the banishment in Adrianople, He crossed the Mediterranean Sea from Gallipolis in Turkey, embarking at Alexandria, Egypt, then on to the fortress of 'Akka, the most desolate of cities.

and from mountain to mountain: The time in Baghdad was turbulent with opposition. To protect His family and companions Baha’u’llah went to the Kurdistan mountains. There He lived in poverty, but the area was magnetized by His presence. After two years, He was persuaded to return to Baghdad.

The other mountain was in Israel, Mount Carmel, where He had docked before His final journey to Akka. Later He had a chance to return to Mount Carmel, to pitch His tent. Here He wrote the Tablet Of Carmel, surrounded by pilgrims looking for the return of Christ to descend from heaven. Mount Carmel is the headquarters of the Baha’i Faith. What we see there now is the fulfillment of the following prophecies:
Isaiah 35:1-2 “The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.”

Baha’is Misinterpret Micah 7:12

Baha’is believe that Micah 7:12 is about Baha’u’llah. They believe this verse chronicles the travels of Baha’u’llah from Persia to the Holy Land, as a prisoner of the …

christianexbahai.wordpress.com

Apart from that, in the Bible it is Mt Zion that Yahweh loves and where He will be forever. Mt Carmel is the wrong mountain, sorry, and Jesus is to return on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, again making Mt Carmel the wrong mountain. There would have been no pilgrims on Mt Carmel waiting for Jesus to return on that mountain.
Isa 35:1-2 says that the desert and wilderness shall blossom like Carmel and Sharon, which were renowned for their lush growth. The desert and wilderness shall see the glory of the LORD and the excellency of our God. It does not say that Carmel and Sharon shall see that. The glory of the LORD is not Baha'u'llah, but is the lush growth that the desert shall witness.

IOW you will have to do better than this to find a prophecy that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled.

 

[Brian2]

The issue you face is that you are not the judge of anyone's spirit. This is the Bible, that anyone who claims to be a Baha'i, would need to embrace, as it is indeed a sure spiritual guide.

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God." 'Abdu'l-Bahá 'Abbás. (Written by 'Abdu'l-Bahá in Persian)

As a Baha'i I embrace the Bible in this light, in the light Abdul'baha showed us with that Inscription in the Old Bible, still on show in the City Temple, and event still celebrated every year.

Abdul'baha in England, was invited to speak in many churches, and from the City Temple pulpit to an evening congregation at the special desire of the Pastor, the Reverend R. J. Campbell, he was invited to give a talk about the Baha'i Faith.

Maybe you can see the Baha'i in a better light from Reverend Campbell's introductory comments?

"We, as the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is to us and will always be the Light of the World, view with sympathy and respect every movement of the Spirit of God in the experience of mankind, and therefore we give greeting to 'Abdu'l-Bahá in the name of all who share the spirit of our Master, and are trying to live their lives in that Spirit. The Bahá'í Movement is very closely akin to, I think I might say is identical with, the spiritual purpose of Christianity."

So you can also quote was is unchristian about the Baha'i way of life, be honest, what is the difference between in what Love we show for God? We are not talking about differences of opinion, it is practice of Faith in service to humanity that is the fruit.

Regards Tony

I am not judging Baha'is, as you know. I am judging the truthfulness of what is taught in Baha'i about who Baha'u'llah is.
The Baha'i faith devalues the Bible and teaches that it is wrong about Jesus and the gospel. The fruit of Baha'i is that it turns people from the truth of the Bible and from Jesus and to the error of a false prophet and false Christ.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It says "even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind"
It does not say that figs will be cast unto the earth.

The word figs is specifically said. Does the Bahai explanation ignore the word?

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind". Revelation.

Given what you said above, do you conclude that the falling stars in 1833 is the specific fulfillment of this prophecy?

No it cant be a certain event like you are suggesting.
Because as I showed Star is in Fig position:

It can be verified that Star and Fig are same position words:

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Brass - Silver - Gold
Corn - Oilve - Grape
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple

I also said while showing star position the sword is star. Notice the sword is in the same position as Fig.

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Brass - Silver - Gold
Corn - Oilve - Grape
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple

Sword, Stars, and Figs are words of the same position.

In Genesis it states the sword is put in Eden. And Adam and Eve wore Fig leaves in Eden.

So throughout the Bible from Genesis through to Revelation the Stars are as Figs. Always have been.

That is why it cant be a certain event in 1833.

 

[Brian2]

So the entire inner Essence of the Bible (all.past scriptures) is now available in this in 153 short meditations (Adds to 9) 71 in part 1 and 83 in part 2.

Regards Tony

Forget the Bible and Jesus and His everlasting gospel and eternal covenant and Lordship, just read 153 short meditations by Baha'u'llah and it is covered.

 

[Brian2]

Again a comment made that is trying to make a case out of a statement made in context to question being asked of Shoghi Effendi about the accuracy of a writing of Baha'u'llah, and in explaining Shoghi Effendi said this. "The Bible is not Wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'án, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá’u’lláh". Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 501

Shoghi Effendi did not say the Bible did not contain truth, but that some aspects are not entirely authentic.

Academics do support this view and have argued over this since the Gospels were compiled, some Gospels were even discarded in the process as being seen as not authentic enough. Shoghi Effendi's statement can be seen to be given in that context. (There are still arguements with scholars over some parts of the Bible).

Regards Tony

I don't think I mentioned any particular quotes from Shoghi or Abdul Baha or the Universal House of Justice etc.
The point is that Baha'i denies the truthfulness of parts of the Bible and in so doing, spreads lies about the Jesus of the Bible and who He is.
This is done in order to try to show that Baha'u'llah is whom he claims to be.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't think I mentioned any particular quotes from Shoghi or Abdul Baha or the Universal House of Justice etc.
The point is that Baha'i denies the truthfulness of parts of the Bible and in so doing, spreads lies about the Jesus of the Bible and who He is.
This is done in order to try to show that Baha'u'llah is whom he claims to be.

The Bible shows us who Baha'u'llah claims to be.

Of all those claiming to be the Promised One, who can show with as much detail from the Bible, that they indeed do fulfil prophecy! The bonus is, how many of those are also established in Isreal?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

A just and honest determination would necessarily begin by ignoring all claimants, and demonstrating that 1) the god exists

The act of ignoring a claimant, means no honest and just determination can be made in regards to finding and knowing God and that is where I finish.

Regards Tony

 

[ppp]

The act of ignoring a claimant, means no honest and just determination can be made in regards to finding and knowing God and that is where I finish.

Regards Tony

There is nothing dishonest or unjust in ignoring a claimant while investigating a claim. That is the only honest and just way to go about it. And of course that is where you finish. As we have established, the notion that the thought your have about your religion are your opinion makes you surly. Same goes for most other theocrats.

 

[CG Didymus]

Fortunately, Baha'u'llah is "I Am".

Regards Tony

You can keep claiming that, but I agree with TB... it is only a belief. It is not a fact to anyone but Baha'is.

But what's bad about you and other Baha'is making those kinds of claims is that it is divisive. You are saying that the Baha'i Faith is the one and only religion that has the truth from God for today. That claim is highly questionable for some of us. And you nor any other Baha'i can give any satisfactory answer, because you can't prove any of it. All you can do is "believe." Which makes Baha'is no better than any other proselytizing religion.

All you have is, "Some day... When the Old World Order collapses, you'll all see. The Baha'i Faith is the truth." Maybe, but what can you show people today? Just claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

The word figs is specifically said. Does the Bahai explanation ignore the word?

There is no Baha'i explanation.

No it cant be a certain event like you are suggesting.
Because as I showed Star is in Fig position:

I also said while showing star position the sword is star. Notice the sword is in the same position as Fig.

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow
Brass - Silver - Gold
Corn - Oilve - Grape
Pomegranate - Fig - Apple

Sword, Stars, and Figs are words of the same position.

In Genesis it states the sword is put in Eden. And Adam and Eve wore Fig leaves in Eden.

So throughout the Bible from Genesis through to Revelation the Stars are as Figs. Always have been.

That is why it cant be a certain event in 1833.

It does not matter to me if the falling stars in 1833 is the specific event fulfilling the prophecy in Revelation because that does not disprove Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah never claimed that prophecy was referring to Him.

"And now, concerning His words—“The sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give light, and the stars shall fall from heaven.” By the terms “sun” and “moon,” mentioned in the writings of the Prophets of God, is not meant solely the sun and moon of the visible universe. Nay rather, manifold are the meanings they have intended for these terms. In every instance they have attached to them a particular significance. Thus, by the “sun” in one sense is meant those Suns of Truth Who rise from the dayspring of ancient glory, and fill the world with a liberal effusion of grace from on high. These Suns of Truth are the universal Manifestations of God in the worlds of His attributes and names. Even as the visible sun that assisteth, as decreed by God, the true One, the Adored, in the development of all earthly things, such as the trees, the fruits, and colours thereof, the minerals of the earth, and all that may be witnessed in the world of creation, so do the divine Luminaries, by their loving care and educative influence, cause the trees of divine unity, the fruits of His oneness, the leaves of detachment, the blossoms of knowledge and certitude, and the myrtles of wisdom and utterance, to exist and be made manifest. Thus it is that through the rise of these Luminaries of God the world is made new, the waters of everlasting life stream forth, the billows of loving-kindness surge, the clouds of grace are gathered, and the breeze of bounty bloweth upon all created things. It is the warmth that these Luminaries of God generate, and the undying fires they kindle, which cause the light of the love of God to burn fiercely in the heart of humanity. It is through the abundant grace of these Symbols of Detachment that the Spirit of life everlasting is breathed into the bodies of the dead. Assuredly the visible sun is but a sign of the splendour of that Day-star of Truth, that Sun Which can never have a peer, a likeness, or rival. Through Him all things live, move, and have their being. Through His grace they are made manifest, and unto Him they all return. From Him all things have sprung, and unto the treasuries of His revelation they all have repaired. From Him all created things did proceed, and to the depositories of His law they did revert." (The Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 33-34)

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

 

[CG Didymus]

Mostly they are fake, in both, ancient scriptures or the new ones.
If they did not do that, the world will be colorless, no strife.
So we should thank these fake prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis.

It's just like the election we just had here in the U.S. One side believes their person is telling the truth, and they "believe" their person is the only way to salvation.

Baha'is just get added in to the mix of religious people saying that what they believe is the truth. And, ironically, the Baha'is do believe some of those religious leaders are fakes, but, for sure, not their guy. He's the real deal.

Oh, and similar to that, is that all these proselytizing religions believe their interpretations of their Scriptures is the correct one. Baha'is fall right in line and say, "Well, their Scriptures are true, but they're interpreting them wrong. But regardless of that, we have the new, improved Scriptures from God that replaces those old, out dated Scriptures anyway."

What can people that hold different beliefs do but argue with Baha'is and say, "No you're wrong, and we're right." And the Baha'is turn around and tell them, No, you're the one that wrong, not us."

Again, like with your beliefs, they don't know much about it. But they know enough to feel confident in telling you that your beliefs are wrong. Then they go off talking about unity and the oneness of religion. The only oneness for them is when all people believe in their interpretations of the other religions.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The Bible shows us who Baha'u'llah claims to be.

Baha'u'llah speaks of Bible words. But he doesn't say anything beyond certain words are said in the Bible. He doesn't explain the words he is just acknowledging certain words were said.

Some examples:

"The wine of Mine utterance from the chalice of my knowledge" Baha'u'llah

"The great sea of thy knowledge" Baha'u'llah

"Oil of his knowledge". Baha'u'llah

"The sword of utterance, or wisdom, and of understanding" Baha'u'llah

"The dawning sun of his knowledge" Baha'u'llah


Can you notice Baha'u'llah is speaking single bible words in his sentences? He will have to be able to put two or more words together into his sentences to talk like Bible prophets. Otherwise it is clear that there is no law of the prophets in the speech of Baha'u'llah.

So there is a difference between Bible prophets and Baha'u'llah.

Bible verses provide more than a single word/symbol in the sentences. But Baha'u'llah doesn't.

 

[CG Didymus]

If Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ then you are actually saying that the Bible is wrong since the Bible has prophecies that Baha'u'llah has not fulfilled.
Point to a prophecy that has been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah.

So easy to claim. And so easy to cherry pick verses and claim they are prophesies about him.

You are right. I don't think I have seen a statement from the Bab or Baha'u'llah that proclaims that the Bible is not the truth.
It is their teachings that in places completely disagrees with what the Bible says however.

Yes, they can say it is the "greatest" book in the world all they want. But they obviously don't mean it.

It is strange to say that "all" the prophecies have been fulfilled and then to say that they have not all been fulfilled.

Yes, some day.

Christians say that Jesus is still to fulfil prophecies, but Jesus rose from the dead and so is alive and ascended to heaven and has received an everlasting Kingdom (Daniel 7:13,14) and rules on the throne of David forever. (Luke 1:32-34)

Yes, all this stuff about "loving" the Bible is meaningless when they reject what all four gospels say.... that Jesus rose from the dead.

To remind them, just in case they forgot... Baha'is believe those verses about the resurrection are not literally true. Baha'is have their own interpretations and beliefs about the Bible. Baha'is do not agree with the way most Christians interpret the Bible. Especially the Christians that take it very literally.

And, just in case Baha'is don't read that link you posted about Micah, here is an important part of what it says...

News flash!! This prophecy of Micah 7:12, was fulfilled way back in 445 BC when Artaxerxes, king of Persia, allowed his Judean cupbearer, Nehemiah, to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall.​

​

Let’s put it into context, and this won’t be hard. Take a look at the verse in your King James Version of the Holy Bible. Let’s start with the verse directly before the cherry-picked verse 12.​

​

11 – In the day that thy walls are to be built, in that day shall the decree be far removed.​

12 – In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.​

Verse 11 says this prophecy refers to “the day that thy walls are to be built” – and those days took place long before Baha’u’llah was born.​

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It does not matter to me if the falling stars in 1833 is the specific event fulfilling the prophecy in Revelation because that does not disprove Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah never claimed that prophecy was referring to Him.

It disproves connecting that Bible verse to Baha'u'llah. It could also disprove what Baha'u'llah says about either stars or figs.