True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[Trailblazer]

I decided to put this in the debate section as truth does at times require the clash of differing opinions. (In the right context)

I am glad you posted this here because I don't go anywhere else.
I don't want to argue but I just want to post what Jesus said.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit


Today on another thread @ppp asked me what the fruits of Baha'u'llah were and I could only respond that they were His works and what He wrote. If you can think of something more specific that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am glad you posted this here because I don't go anywhere else.
I don't want to argue but I just want to post what Jesus said.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit


Today on another thread @ppp asked me what the fruits of Baha'u'llah were and I could only respond that they were His works and what He wrote. If you can think of something more specific that would be greatly appreciated.

Baha'u'llah's life before the declaration was exemplary. He was known as the Father of the Poor, his charity was wide and constant. He constantly amazed people as to the depth of his wisdom. The childhood of the Messengers already indicates to people that they are extraordinary. All these stories and recollections are available in may historical works.

It is interesting to note that this one of the signs when they choose the Dalai Lama

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I’m well aware of the suffering that goes on in the world. Should I suffer with them? Should I starve myself? Maybe turn off my heat this winter?

One can consider that the world is relative to our nature and nurture, as well as knowlegde and that our situation can change in a blink of the eye.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Science and to a lesser degree reason are the only sound sources of knowledge that I know of, are they allowed in this debate?

Science is not able to dispute the existence of God, the source of our ability in Science, so I would offer why consider such a path?

I would offer both Science and religion need to be in harmony and not try to dispute with each other.

"Another cause of dissension and disagreement is the fact that religion has been pronounced at variance with science. Between scientists and the followers of religion there has always been controversy and strife for the reason that the latter have proclaimed religion superior in authority to science and considered scientific announcement opposed to the teachings of religion. Bahá’u’lláh declared that religion is in complete harmony with science and reason." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 231

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is interesting to note that this one of the signs when they choose the Dalai Lama

Really? This is what I found...

The Dalai Lama Fact Sheet - University of Northern Iowa​

Selection Process: When a Dalai Lama dies, a search for his reincarnation takes place a couple of years later. A regent holds the reins of government until he is found, trained and finally formally installed at his maturity. There are many clues as to where that incarnation may be found. The previous Dalai Lama may himself give some indications where he will incarnate. The State Oracle will be consul-ted and certain lamas will gaze into a sacred lake where a vision of his locale may be found. In the case of the present 14th Dalai Lama, the presiding regent received a vision of a monastery with a jade-green and gold roof, and a house with turquoise roof tiles. Following these clues led them to the home where the four-year old Tenzin Gyatso was living. However, further tests are necessary. Significant possessions of the previous Dalai Lama are shown to the perspective incarnation but mixed with like objects that are newer and more shiny. If the young child consistently reaches for the previous Dalai Lama’s objects, this strengthens the case that the child is the correct incarnation.​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Really? This is what I found...

The Dalai Lama Fact Sheet - University of Northern Iowa​

Selection Process: When a Dalai Lama dies, a search for his reincarnation takes place a couple of years later. A regent holds the reins of government until he is found, trained and finally formally installed at his maturity. There are many clues as to where that incarnation may be found. The previous Dalai Lama may himself give some indications where he will incarnate. The State Oracle will be consul-ted and certain lamas will gaze into a sacred lake where a vision of his locale may be found. In the case of the present 14th Dalai Lama, the presiding regent received a vision of a monastery with a jade-green and gold roof, and a house with turquoise roof tiles. Following these clues led them to the home where the four-year old Tenzin Gyatso was living. However, further tests are necessary. Significant possessions of the previous Dalai Lama are shown to the perspective incarnation but mixed with like objects that are newer and more shiny. If the young child consistently reaches for the previous Dalai Lama’s objects, this strengthens the case that the child is the correct incarnation.​

You are most likely correct, I took that thought from a memory, I should have checked. The statement I made was easily proved and obviously wrong.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I see in Scriptures, that the view there is only one ultimate source of truth which in this OP will be known as God, is fully supported, and that is the purpose for all of humanity to obtain to, the knowledge of the One God.

It's easy to say that when you only include Abrahamic religions. Can you show some verses from Hinduism and Buddhism that support one God. And explain why in some sects of Hinduism there are many Gods. And that at least in some, or maybe most, sects of Buddhism, there is no God?

Shaivism is one of the largest denominations of Hinduism, and its followers worship Shiva, sometimes known as “The Destroyer,” as their supreme deity.​

​

Vaishnavism recognizes many deities, including Vishnu, Lakshmi, Krishna and Rama...​

​

Shaktism is somewhat unique among the four major traditions of Hinduism in that its followers worship a female deity, the goddess Shakti (also known as Devi).​

​

Smartism followers worship five deities: Vishnu, Shiva, Devi, Ganesh and Surya.​

The Theravada school teaches that there is no universal personal god. The world does not have its origin in a primordial being such as brahman or the creator god.​

 

[danieldemol]

Science is not able to dispute the existence of God, the source of our ability in Science, so I would offer why consider such a path?

I would offer both Science and religion need to be in harmony and not try to dispute with each other.

"Another cause of dissension and disagreement is the fact that religion has been pronounced at variance with science. Between scientists and the followers of religion there has always been controversy and strife for the reason that the latter have proclaimed religion superior in authority to science and considered scientific announcement opposed to the teachings of religion. Bahá’u’lláh declared that religion is in complete harmony with science and reason." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 231

Regards Tony

Is that a long winded way of saying science and reason are not permitted in this debate in answer to the question I posed Tony?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The debate is from those that support and oppose that position. What support do you have that Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not Messengers.

I could support Jesus and Muhammad but I cant support the Bab and Baha'u'llah unless it can be clearly verified that they know where to put their words.

I will show you what I mean. You mentioned Biblical words like anointed with oil, and you mentioned the wilderness.

Oil is one of a three part set of biblical words:

And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. Psalm.

And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. Samuel.


Just like Wilderness is one of a three part set of words:
"For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount".


Just like Sword is one of a three part set of words:
Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah.


And according to the verses that overlap those sets of threes you can see their position alignment:

"I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together": Isaiah.

"We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness". Lamentations.

"The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords". Psalm


You can see the Oil is in the Wilderness, the Oil is as a Sword, and the Sword is of the Wilderness.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain
Spear - Sword - Bow

So according to scripture positioning the sets of threes the Oil, and Wilderness, and Sword share the same position.

We can see Muhammad knows where to put his Oil, as he speaks of a star lit by the oil of a blessed olive tree. Star is one of another three part set.

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory". Corinthians.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain
Spear - Sword - Bow
Moon - Star - Sun

According to scripture the star is in sword position. Look carefully according to the two sets of threes:
"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habbakuk.

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

So can the Bab or Baha'u'llah show they also know the specific positioning of any of these words, or not?
Do they know the difference between an olive and a grape?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

With overlapping sets consider Biblical thorns and thistles, and mountains and hills.

The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us. Hosea.

There is wine in the mountain:
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. Amos


As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouths of fools. Provebs.


So according to the prophets you can get grapes from their thorns. I can also show scripture supporting the figs from their thistles.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So can the Bab or Baha'u'llah show they also know the specific positioning of any of these words, or not?
Do they know the difference between an olive and a grape?

It that is an interest for you, all the Writings are available on Bahai.Org in the Library section. All the currently English translated works of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are available.

One can bring them up online and search the texts.

You may be interested in this link

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

Extract

".. The expressions used in this verse such as light, tree, lamp, oil are invoked profusely by the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh in their Tablets and Writings as similes and metaphors so as to enlighten our hearts and minds with the inner meanings of the Revelations of God, of our purpose in this life, and to facilitate our entrance into the Kingdom. Bahá'u'lláh's references to the Lote-Tree, the Sadratu'l-Muntahá, the Blessed Tree, the Lamp, the Oil are found throughout His Writings..."

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Isaiah puts his wolf with the lamb.
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. Isaiah

Ezekiel also puts his wolf with the sheep. As he puts Benjamin with Joseph:
And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. Ezekiel

Joseph is as the sheep:
Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm

Benjamin is as the wolf:
Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil. Genesis.


And Jesus said:
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matthew.


Prophets speak wolf and sheep together.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

It that is an interest for you, all the Writings are available on Bahai.Org in the Library section. All the currently English translated works of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are available.

One can bring them up online and search the texts.

You may be interested in this link

I am interested in that link. Thank you. I have looked at it and I tried to get @Trailblazer to look at it a while ago with me. What I am looking for is weaving in their speech. Sets of words that get woven into shared positions with other sets.

When words of different sets are being woven into shared positions it sounds like nonsense or gets interpreted as being magic. This is how one word can jump to a seemingly unrelated word in a sentence. Not magic. It is a related parallel word from another set. Same position.

Can you find anywhere the Bab or Baha'u'llah speaks more than one biblical word/symbol in a sentence?

Single symbol sentences are instantly dismissed.


Edit:
It cant be just repeating Bible or the Quran word for word either. That doesnt count.
Like Baha'u'llah with "the mountains shall be like wool" which is found in the Quran.

The mountains are as wool, because the hills are as the goats, and the valleys are as the cattle.

"The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies". Psalm.

"For thus saith the Lord, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts". Kings

We can clearly see the mountain is as sheep:

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

But the Bab and Baha'u'llah will have to be able to show they also know it, and not just repeating it.

 

[sayak83]

I decided to put this in the debate section as truth does at times require the clash of differing opinions. (In the right context)

I start the OP with a disclaimer. This is my view based on my understanding of what God has offered Humanity in the religious scriptures. As it is placed in the debate section. I will state this position is that of being founded in the Truth of those scriptures and as such is not able to be proven false (Supported by Scriptures). If you are on the team that want to prove any aspect false. Then it also must be supported by Scriptures, from your source of truth, this is not a debate that is to be supported only by personal views.

I see in Scriptures, that the view there is only one ultimate source of truth which in this OP will be known as God, is fully supported, and that is the purpose for all of humanity to obtain to, the knowledge of the One God.

1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

Everything is from the One God.

Romans 11:36 "All things come from God, through God, and return to God. Praise him for ever! Yes, it is so!"

That is the position of Truth used to establish the Authenticity of the Prophets, Messengers or Manifestations, all these donate the person who is "Annointed" of the One God, also known as "Messiah" in prophecy. (For this OP Messenger will be used)

Isaiah 11:2 "And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord."
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed."

The Annointed Ones, also are supported by one that prepares the way.

Isaiah 40: 1-11 I will.use verse 3

A voice of one calling: “In the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1 supports this for John the Baptist for Jesus, who jesus said was Elijah and Elijah always comes first.

"2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way”, 3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”"

It would then be logical that all Messengers are supported by a person preparing the way, an "Elijah" proclaiming the soon to arrive Messenger.

Malachi 4:5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."

This is not a time of peace as Malachi in verse 6 continues to offer, "He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

At this time all things are made new. A True Messenger will give a New Revelation, they will not piggyback from the last Message and identify as one who is giving the last message in its true form. They will be born into a Faith, but claim a new Message from God and give a New book.

Isaiah 43:19 "See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland."

Revelation 21:5 “And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, ‘Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.’”

There are many considerations, but I will start the OP with but one more consideration, that is the the perdon of the Messenger will be known by their fruit.

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Using this information, I see the position of Truth can state that the last 4 Messengers from God, oldest to newest are Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

In the cause of the Bab, He was also the Elijah for Baha'u'llah.

The debate is from those that support and oppose that position. What support do you have that Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not Messengers.

It is also possible we can broach the truth of any other claimed Messenger.

View attachment 97978

Regards Tony @CG Didymus

Even in your worldview this is inconsistent.
Muhammad has no prior person proclaiming him. Nor did Moses.
And Isiah, considered a prophet, did not have a new book but is an integral part of OT book itself.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Even in your worldview this is inconsistent.
Muhammad has no prior person proclaiming him. Nor did Moses.
And Isiah, considered a prophet, did not have a new book but is an integral part of OT book itself.

Elijah always comes first, it just may be that history did not see that significance and thus many was not looking. Here is one record for Muhammad.

".....One story that is accepted by most Islamic scholars and historians is the account of one of Prophet Muhammad’s trips to Syria.
The story goes that the monk Bahira foretold the coming Prophethood and counseled Abu Talib to “guard his nephew carefully”. According to biographer Ibn Ishaq, as the caravan in which Prophet Muhammad was travelling approached the edge of town, Bahira could see a cloud that appeared to be shading and following a young man.
When the caravan halted under the shadow of some trees, Bahira “looked at the cloud when it over-shadowed the tree, and its branches were bending and drooping over the apostle of God until he was in the shadow beneath it.”

After Bahira witnessed this he observed Muhammad closely and asked him many questions concerning a number of Christian prophecies he had read and heard about..."
Read More on islamonline: Signs of Muhammad's Prophethood (Part 1) Prophet Muhammad’s Early Life - IslamOnline

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

Elijah always comes first, it just may be that history did not see that significance and thus many was not looking. Here is one record for Muhammad.

".....One story that is accepted by most Islamic scholars and historians is the account of one of Prophet Muhammad’s trips to Syria.
The story goes that the monk Bahira foretold the coming Prophethood and counseled Abu Talib to “guard his nephew carefully”. According to biographer Ibn Ishaq, as the caravan in which Prophet Muhammad was travelling approached the edge of town, Bahira could see a cloud that appeared to be shading and following a young man.
When the caravan halted under the shadow of some trees, Bahira “looked at the cloud when it over-shadowed the tree, and its branches were bending and drooping over the apostle of God until he was in the shadow beneath it.”

After Bahira witnessed this he observed Muhammad closely and asked him many questions concerning a number of Christian prophecies he had read and heard about..."
Read More on islamonline: Signs of Muhammad's Prophethood (Part 1) Prophet Muhammad’s Early Life - IslamOnline

Regards Tony

This is similar to the story of the Magi visiting Jesus at birth. Do you have an example of a pre-prophet just before Mohammad proclaiming him in Arabia for a significant amount of time?
Anything for Moses?
Did Elijah proclaim Isaiah?
Sorry your example fails here.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is similar to the story of the Magi visiting Jesus at birth. Do you have an example of a pre-prophet just before Mohammad proclaiming him in Arabia for a significant amount of time?
Anything for Moses?
Did Elijah proclaim Isaiah?
Sorry your example fails here.

It was just one article. Jesus said Elijah always comes first, so there would have been an Elijah for Muhammad. Maybe the Muslims know the history, they can respond if they are reading this.

The Elijah for Baha'u'llah was another Messenger the Bab, the Bab had two Elijah, one who became the first beleiver. This was recorded in history.

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

It was just one article. Jesus said Elijah always comes first, so there would have been an Elijah for Muhammad. Maybe the Muslims know the history, they can respond if they are reading this.

The Elijah for Baha'u'llah was another Messenger the Bab, the Bab had two Elijah, one who became the first beleiver. This was recorded in history.

Regards Tony

So basically you failed to show that the pattern you were claiming proved Bahaullah was a real messager cannot be shown to hold for Mohammad or Moses or Isaiah.
Thus a just and honest examination refutes the OP.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So basically you failed to show that the pattern you were claiming proved Bahaullah was a real messager cannot be shown to hold for Mohammad or Moses or Isaiah.
Thus a just and honest examination refutes the OP.

If that is the depth of just and honest determination you will use to prove it for your own self, I am not here to change your mind.

Regards Tony

 

[sayak83]

If that is the depth of just and honest determination you will use to prove it for your own self, I am not here to change your mind.

Regards Tony

Its a fair assessment. You failed to support your own OP claim.
Here is my counter claim. The Bible, OT and Quran show no set pattern regard the life or these founders or prophets. Moses rescued the Jews politically and gave them a religious book and basic Judaic religion. He was not acclaimed by anyone before. Isiah and other Judaic prophets stayed within the tradition itself, though they wrote additional books of the canon. Jesus was a Jew and wrote nothing, though his acts and apparent resurrection inspired a new religion to develop and splinter off from Judaism. Muhammad was not a Jew and basically created a new Abrahamic religion and political entity from a previously polytheistic conglomeration of tribes. He gave sayings which were recorded after his death.
What similarity is there? Nothing, apart from they were all supposedly inspired by the same God.